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limom
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 04:23 pm |
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My D is a junior and I thought that she was in good shape. she has maintained a 95 avg, unweighted, has always worked a year above her grade level and this year she will complete her 5th AP course. she is in the nat'l honor society, the english hs, the art hs, is on a varsity sport as well as several clubs. she will take the SATs in the spring, but her psat score wasn't great (80th percentile). when I spoke to her guidance counselor about schools to consider visiting a couple of the schools that she mentioned were 4th tier schools. I'm a little blown away by this. I wasn't looking at Ivies, but I thought we were in better shape than this. What more should she be doing???
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Chedva
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 04:43 pm |
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1) Define "4th tier" - what schools was your d's GC talking about? I've never really heard that term. There's another thread that got quite hostile with talk of "2nd tier" and "3rd tier" schools. Knowing what schools or types of schools the GC considered will help us answer your questions.
2) Perhaps she should prep for the SAT/ACTs, either doing self-study, prep classes or tutor - whatever works for your d.
3) If she's not a good test-taker or doesn't want to prep, take a look at test-optional schools (http://www.fairtest.org).
4) Take a look at the Fiske Guide; look at schools she might be interested in and see where she falls with their admitted students. A bit harder to do without SAT scores, but it'll give you a place to start.
5) Calm down. Breathe. And ask questions here!
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limom
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 04:49 pm |
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one of the schools that she mentioned to me was Christopher Newport College in VA, usnews has it listed as 4th tier. she dismissed any of the schools that she mentioned were competitive. thanks.
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Alumother
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 04:51 pm |
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It's a good time to be having these questions. First off - PSAT of 80th percentile is what score? Second, absolutely she can study by doing real SATs. She will probably improve her scores. Third - she is a varsity athlete? Any chance she will play her sport in college? The SAT bar for athletes who can contribute to a college team, especially a well-supported team, is honestly a good deal lower, even at the most selective of colleges. Finally, yes, what do you mean by 4th tier? For some people, the tiers go like this, Tier 1, HYPSM, Tier 2, SWAP, Tier 3 Dartmouth, Columbia, Brown, Caltech ...LOL.
So give us a little more info and we will try to help out.
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limom
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 04:56 pm |
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her psat scores were cr.reading 53, math 62 writing 56. her math and english teachers each expect her to get a 700 on her sat, but I don't think that she's a great test taker, so I'm not banking on that. when her gc metioned a fourth tier school, she may have well said "don't set your sights high". she plays varsity tennis and has for 3 years but she doesn't love it enough to commit to it in college. she also volunteers at the hospital and we thought we were doing all of the right things.
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Chedva
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 05:00 pm |
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| What are her interests? What kind of environment does she want - urban, suburban, rural? Large or small school?
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limom
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 05:03 pm |
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she would like an urban or suburban setting and she would like to be in a climate warmer than NY. at this point she's thinking of medicine or business majors. at this point she's very open as she is a little overwhelmed.
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Alumother
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 05:17 pm |
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Those aren't terrible scores by any means - just somewhat out of line with the grades you say she has kept up. Maybe there is a testing issue.
There is a way to study for the SATs known in the college admissions Internet world as the "Xiggi method", named for a poster known as Xiggi . Basically it is about self-studying with no time limits, real SATs, and little bit by little bit until the kid gets comfortable and knowledgable about how they work.
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limom
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 05:21 pm |
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I don't think that she does test well. I have hired a math and an english tutor to get her ready for the tests and they say that she should score very well. I was under the impression that having a very tough cirriculum and maintaining a 95 avg was going to be more important than test scores. I have also signed her up for the ACTs as well.
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rhumbob
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 06:04 pm |
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Your daughter sounds like a great kid. Congratulations.
One of the reasons I like this board is because the majority of posters focus on how well a school fits a student rather than school's rank or reputation. My D is in the middle of her first semester so my comments only reflect her experience (and my ancient college experience). I attended a school considered in the 4th tier by US News. I really gave it no thought...it was the closest school to where I lived at the time. Looking back I suppose the liberal arts portion of my education could have been stronger but the business school was excellent. As I understand it the business school is still very strong. As an accounting major i was well recruited upon graduation.
My D is attending a school that US News ranks around 100 in Liberal Arts Colleges. She applied to schools that were ranked as high as 45. She was accepted with merit packages at all the schools she applied to and chose her school based on fit after visiting a couple of times. Her stats were in the same ballpark as your daughters and a SAT of 600/600/690.
Guidance counselors are like everyone else and their recommendations reflect their own experience, prejudices, and world outlook. From what you described your D will be able to select from a wide universe of choices.
Good luck and enjoy the trip.
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limom
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 06:14 pm |
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thank you for the encouragement. I am trying to keep it as stress free as I can for her, if that's possible.
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moewb
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 07:05 pm |
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Do your own 'homework' and do not listen (entirely) to the guidance department: take them for what they are - 'guidance' and not authority. Often, IMHO, they are overworked, underpaid, overwhelmed, and just plain looking to make sure that all of the students are admitted 'somewhere'.
I found my son's guidance officer to be personable, and helpful, but willing to set the bar quite low for him.
Although,as he is a current junior, it remains to be seen where he will apply, and be admitted, her initial schools for a student with a 3.9 gpa and a 200 sophmore PSAT included instate flagship (that's a good choice), Emerson, and the University of Scranton. When he mentioned places like Bard, and Wesleyan to her, she flat out told him NO and strongly discouraged him.
I certainly was no admissions guru before that conversation with guidance. Having listened and learned since then, I do see how competitive the process is and will be for him. That said, based on my research, the instate flagship seems pretty safe for him, as his cr scores are in the 50% range, and his math, well, that's way up there.
Follow your own path with all this. And, encourage your daughter to do the same.
BTW, this post is meant only to imply that the guidance office recomendations are not the be all and end all. NOT, that any choices they may suggest are per se wrong, or do not represent a quality education.
Last edited on Tue Jan 15th, 2008 07:09 pm by moewb
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Slewnior
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 09:31 pm |
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For what it's worth, my D's HS guidance counsellor and privately hired counsellor both told her that she would have no shot at Northeastern. Her SAT's were 610/650/630, but she took the ACT, 28. She decided to submit only the ACT score to NEU. Not only did she get in, but she was awarded significant merit $$. She is in a public high school, not particularly known to send kids to top schools, she is barely in the top quarter and doesn't have a string of extra-curricular activities that really shine.
She only submitted ACT scores to what would be considered her "reach" schools that do not offere Early Action admission. We'll see how she is received from those 4 schools, come March/April.
I suppose my comments would be: a) I agree very strongly with all of what's been said, to this point, particuarly about finding the right "fit"; b) your daughter should give the ACT a shot; and c) ignore counsellors.  Seriously, I do think that there is some pressure on HS guidance couns. to get kids admitted. Likewise, there is pressure on the independents contractors to do the same.
Some kids do better on the ACT than the SAT, and more an more LAC's will accept the ACT alone. My daughter took the ACT cold...she had never seen the test. Unfortunately, she didn't realize it is a speed driven test, and I think some practice might have offered her an opportunity to improve on the 28. But, so far, she's received acceptances from 4 of the 4 early action schools to which she's applied (the 4th came yesterday). I have no idea what "tier" they are, but I know this....she is comfortable with each school to which she made application, would be happy to attend any one of them, and I am confident that an excellent education is available to her at each.
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limom
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 09:41 pm |
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congratulations on the acceptances! I am hoping for the same with the ACTs. Everything that I had previously hoped for was shot after my conversation with guidance, but I think that I will be doing this without there "guidance" from here on in.
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limom
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 09:44 pm |
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I agree that they are setting the bar very low. I was always under the assumption that the schools wanted their kids to get into the best school that they could. Now I think they just want them to get in.
thanks for your feedback.
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Shennie
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 10:23 pm |
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| I think the ACT is in order. And I also re-emphasize that you look at the test-optional schools listed in post #2 above from Chedva. Last edited on Tue Jan 15th, 2008 10:24 pm by Shennie
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 12:40 am |
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limom wrote: My D is a junior and I thought that she was in good shape. she has maintained a 95 avg, unweighted, has always worked a year above her grade level and this year she will complete her 5th AP course. she is in the nat'l honor society, the english hs, the art hs, is on a varsity sport as well as several clubs. she will take the SATs in the spring, but her psat score wasn't great (80th percentile).
80th percentile = better than 80% of the children taking the test!
She is in the top 5th at least. If she is not comfortable taking tests, getting 80% status is rather good, if not excellent.
With the other information you have presented, your D is an excellent candidate for any college in our land.
Granted, with the crunch of students applying at this junction in our history, she would have difficulties (but not impossible) getting accepted at the most competitive colleges, however as the Adcoms at those very competitive colleges will admit, she (based on her grades and PSAT score) would be capable of passing and graduating from their college.
Frankly based on the above data I could guarantee that your D will have multiple choices and be able to gather merit scholarships in any number of excellent schools.
The GC (like many in that overworked, underpaid and little appreciated fraternity) is low balling expectations so that she/he will not be blamed for their charges not be accepted etc.
FWIW, the expectation level is usually too high on boards like the CC, in your case, the GC went far too low.
As you read the past links here and you investigate colleges, you will become happily aware of the current achievements and future potential of your D. At least that is both my hope and expectation.
You have asked the right questions in the right forum IMO and hopefully you and your D will have many reasons to be glad that you have had the foresight to seek the opinions of Carolyn's crew of parents/students. 
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Consolation
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 12:44 am |
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She sounds like a perfect candidate for SAT-optional schools, many of which would appreciate her rigorous courseload and good grades. Trying the ACT would be a good idea also. The ACT is reputedly more straightforward than the SAT, and you are not penalized for wrong answers.
In the mean time, it seems to me that you can look at the middle 50% SAT ranges for schools and figure out shere she would stand on that criterion alone if --worst case--her scores don't rise, even with prep or with taking the ACT. Then you could add in some reachier schools, with particular attention to those that are SAT optional. I would think that realizing that she has an array of realistic options would help take the pressure off around testing, which would help her do better.
Has she taken the AP exams to go with her courses? Good scores there would help validate her good grades in AP classes. Has she taken any SATIIs yet? Same thing. Seems to me that immediately developing a plan for fitting in the testing that would potentially broaden her options without driving her crazy would be a good step.
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HijinksAndSue
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 01:48 am |
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There is not much I can say that previous posters haven't already said but I will chime in here to say ...
Your D sounds like an excellent and well-rounded candidate for many good and great schools.
And I truly believe that "not being a good test taker" can absolutely be worked through in advance with some of the companies that specialize in this. She obviously is bright and motivated. And being a junior she has plenty of time if she has the commitment to do so ...
My D scored a 480 on her math PSAT and a 500 on her first practice math SAT and by the time she'd taken some Princeton Review classes she was scoring mid 600s on her math. Maybe not HPY scores but certainly enough to make me realize that even though she is DEFINITELY what I would term "not a good test taker," there was hope because these people are trained specifically to work with kids like ours.
I'm betting your D will far surpass that with work and faith and commitment and next year at this time you'll be back here with an awesome list of your D's acceptances!
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bumpyroad
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 10:09 pm |
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I would second the basic comment - don't worry, it's not that bad. I think a problem for the guidance counselors is that they have to serve a broad spectrum of customers, and there seems to be a tendency to try and tamp down expectations. I suppose it's natural to want to avoid dashed hopes, but it sounds like your D should have a lot of options.
And as others have said, the philosophy around here tries to buck the ranking trend and find good fits. Describing a prospective school as 4th tier just seems so negative - these are tiers that didn't exist 25 years ago, and I doubt that either schools or the prospective students have changed that much in the interim.
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