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Just_Me
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 11:37 pm |
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Hi all,
On the other forum I read that a student with 4.1 UC GPA, 2180 SAT and several ECs was rejected at UCLA and UC Berkeley this year.
To be honest, that makes me nervous. My son (junior) has similar stats (4.3 UC GPA, 2310 SAT) but his only ECs are two years of baseball, 4 years of band, perhaps 150 hours of community service and he works on the family farm.
Carolyn, I know you went to the UC conference for guidance counselors. Do you think my son's lack of ECs is going to hurt him?
thanks.
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Lynda
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 11:42 pm |
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| It has been a few years, son is a junior in college. His HS class val was rejected at Cal and UCLA. He turned down West Point and is at the Naval academy. I don't think you can predict Cal and UCLA admissions.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 01:06 am |
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Just_Me wrote: To be honest, that makes me nervous. My son (junior) has similar stats (4.3 UC GPA, 2310 SAT) but his only ECs are two years of baseball, 4 years of band, perhaps 150 hours of community service and he works on the family farm.
Carolyn, I know you went to the UC conference for guidance counselors. Do you think my son's lack of ECs is going to hurt him?
thanks.
Just_Me,
The UC's, like all colleges, consider many factors, so no one can really look the limited information given on anonymous internet discussion forum and draw any conclusions as to why a specific student was/was not admitted. Therefore, try not to read too much into the brief data you can glean from these forums. You really need to know much more about a specific student and their grades AND curriculum, as well as their application to try to figure out some of the reasons behind admissions decisions.
I've had an opportunity to not only attend the counselor conference, but also to speak personally with several UC application readers. As I mentioned, many factors are considered. The UC's are not looking at the quantity of EC's, but rather at what the student's EC's reveal.
The UC readers I've spoken with and the presenters at the counselor conference have all emphasized the importance of the essays - they say many kids don't use the essays wisely, they fail to convey more about themselves than what can already be found elsewhere in their application. In a sense, the essays are the UC's version of an interview and recommendation all rolled up into one -- and, just like you should go to an interview with a sense of what you want to get across, or ask a teacher who knows you well to write your recommendaiton, you should strategize about the essays. The UC system itself says this over and over again to students as well.
What the readers ARE looking for in essays are not more lists of EC's, but rather any and all of the following: signs of leadership ability, special talents, interests that the student has pursued outside of the classroom, potential to add to the campus community, an on-going commitment to taking advantage of educational opportunities, challenges overcome, etc.
Students need to really think carefully about who they are beyond just their grades, test scores, and EC's, and come up with solid examples that reveal important information and yet can be explained succinctly in the limited space of the essays. Doing so is often what gets a kid with a 3.9 GPA/1200 SATs in over a kid with higher GPAs and test scores.
For all of these reasons, the UC essays need to be written in a way that is somewhat different than the way you might write essays for other colleges. The UC readers are not looking for highly creative approaches, but rather for specific information that they can use to justify admitting a student. (Some kids do write creative essays for the UCs and get in, but if that's the approach, the essays still better provide specific information and not make the UC readers have to work too hard). Luckily, the UC's do a good job (I think) of telling kids exactly what they are looking for in the essays. (see the tutorial in the UC College Pathways site, for instance: https://uccp.collegepath.org/)
I'd also advise your son to be sure to take a challenging senior year courseload, and, as always, to have a well-rounded college list that includes matches and safeties, not just the UC schools that are reaches for everyone. At places like UC B and UCLA, I agree with Lynda: It is hard to predict a particular student's chances because there are so many variables.
With that said, without knowing more about your son than what you've provided, I can't predict his specific chances, but his grades and test scores are certainly within range. The number of EC's won't matter as much as the way he he presents himself and what he chooses to emphasize in the essays.
Last edited on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 01:26 am by CarolynLawrence
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 02:25 am |
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Just Me:
4 years of Band:
2 years of baseball;
works on family farm;
Does some (150 hours) of community service;
May I presume he attends high school full time! 
Well - if he likes Band, playing baseball and was happy helping on the family farm and doing community service and is succeeding in High School
What more could be expected!!!!
Carolyn's advice is dead on - As long as he can demonstrate in interviews or thru essays his interest, love of, enjoyment of, or willingness to involvement himself in one of more of these laudable pursuits, his EC's are fine and sufficient if not more so.
Imagine a class filled with blonde cheerleaders captains and high school quarterbacks, all with 2400 SAT and 4.9+ weighted GPA's!!!!
What a dull and boring group that would turn out to be.
A baseball playing, band playing farmer with a sense of community, not a bad combination (imo) , perhaps to some college Adcoms, even a uniquely interesting person. 
Last edited on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 02:26 am by jocelynDAD
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 02:32 am |
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I missed the family farm part. Thanks JD for being more eagle eyed than me.  Actually, the UCs tend to like kids who work on the family farm. But, it has to be conveyed in the essays somehow, or they'll never know.
Don't worry too much. Just focus on building a solid list, and the essays.
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Wstrdg
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 04:59 am |
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First off, Berkeley and UCLA are almost as unpredictable and chancy as the Ivy Lottery. Consider them as such, and don't count them as matches or safeties, because on sheer numbers alone, they are lotteries.
Second, your son's EC's sound amazing! Hug him. Now, if he hasn't yet read the UC Common essay prompts, look at those. The parameters are pretty strict. You have three questions, and a strict word limit (1000 for all 3) to explain everything about yourself. As Carolyn said, the instructions want the essays to reinforce your app's strengths, plus bring out any additional info that should be known about you. Bear in mind that the UC app does not accept letters of rec, transcripts up front, supplemental materials, etc. So those essays are it. You will be able to add a little in the descriptions that tag your EC's, Awards, Work, but not much. And there is a tiny section for Additional Comments. You could stick in anything relevant that doesn't fit elsewhere, including special challenges, etc.
Use your essays to explain your unique background. Find a theme and build everything else around it, the family farm seems a natural. I had to work on my family's farm (and in the family business) growing up, and it does permeate everything else that you do, whether or not you realize it. Run with it.
Sounds like you have an amazing kid! Congrats!
Last edited on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 07:12 pm by Wstrdg
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Just_Me
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 02:52 pm |
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Thanks for the reassurance, guys!
I checked out the link Carolyn provided and it gave great practical advice on writing the essay!
Wstrdg you wrote:
"Find a theme and build everything else around it, the family farm seems a natural. I had to work on my family's farm (and in the family business) growing up, and it does permeate everything else that you do, whether or not you realize it. Run with it."
You are so right.....living on a farm does permeate everything else. For my son, it has given him a great work ethic (he's been working on the farm since age 6) and we have seen a real knack for running/managing a business. He is also not afraid to get his hands dirty and he has done everything from pouring cement to operating a forklift to netting a pond in the mud.
Most of his community service has been practical stuff that we do as a family. Every month we help pack up the sound equipment at our church. Last week we helped build picnic benches for a community park that was burned down. Tomorrow we are helping to load wheelchairs to ship overseas. My husband spent four years with the Peace Corps, so as a family, we try to get involved and make a difference.
My son excels as a human being, but he just never was one to get excited about joining clubs at school or other typical teen type stuff. I can see how the personal statement part of the application is the perfect place to flesh all this out.
Thanks again!
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mom61
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 11:52 pm |
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Also check with your school and see how they do in admissions to the top UC's. From our town students have done really well in admissions to Cal yet a UCLA admission is rare. It doesn't seem to make any sense.
Also the private prep school in our town rarely gets admissions to Cal and UCLA but gets students into top private schools.
Your son sounds like a wonderful kid.
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 04:00 am |
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Add UC San Diego to the list. As of this spring break they were telling parents on their tours that their median GPA for the Fall 2007 freshman class is 4.09, and they will not consider a student without strong ECs in community service and/or leadership.
Carolyn, this posted twice. Can you please remove one?
Last edited on Mon Apr 16th, 2007 04:01 am by WestrnMom
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 07:04 pm |
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JustMe: don't worry, just give it a shot. And, as carolyn said, the essays are crucial for the two flagship UCs -- they read 'em. The other UCs are more about mathematical points, i.e., gpa and test scores.
As mom61 asks, how does your HS do in admissions to those two schools? Our HS routinely sends 30-40 to Cal & UCLA each year. Altho our HS doesn't rank, its pretty obvious that these are the top ~30 in a class of 550. Last year, only one of the "top" kids was rejected by Cal, but he recieved merit money from Hopkins! Can only believe that the reader didn't "like" or "get" his essays.
The two flagships are also aware of geographic diversity -- they like to promote that they have students from every California county, (assuming a qualified kid applies from Alpine County). Thus, its also a plus if you live in the central valley.
Work up the farm angle -- adcoms will love it.
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Just_Me
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 09:04 pm |
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Thanks for all the info!
I think approx 5 - 10 kids from our school got accepted to UCB/UCLA this year.
DesparateDad...
We live in a rural area in the central valley.....just one high school and the biggest news is that they are building a Walmart. Six years ago we were an underperforming school but there have been a lot of changes/improvements since then (we are now a Distinguished School). 63% of our high school students receive free/reduced lunch. Most graduates go straight to work or to community colleges in neighboring towns.
Thanks for the advice re: writing about the farm. I think left on their own, my children probably wouldn't write about farm life as they are afraid of appearing like country bumpkins. My oldest didn't realized what a different upbringing he has had until he went away to college.
Just_Me
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Just_Me
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 09:05 pm |
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double post
Last edited on Mon Apr 16th, 2007 09:08 pm by Just_Me
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myau
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Posted: Fri Jun 1st, 2007 06:55 pm |
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I have heard that UC system strongly favors the applicants with the 100+ hours of community service. Some high schools in our area (but not ours) even include those 100 hours into their graduation requirements, reasoning that by "UC requirements".
Anybody know anything on that matter?
Is there any preferrence on behalf of UC adcoms towards community service over any other ECs? Do they favor community service hours quantity over the "quality"? Would they consider the difference between different kinds of community service and the reasons for some applicants for not being able to spend so many hours volounteering?
The reason I'm worried about it is my D's case: besides being a high-achieving student in the overly-competitive high school (and therefore spending enormous hours on her homework) she plays 2 and a half instruments, so she needs plenty of time to practice at home as well as to go to rehearsals and performances. At her school, she is active in 2 language-related clubs (an officer) and one music-related, which is, actually, her only kind of community service: they perform at senior centers, nursing homes and charity/community/city events. Not very often, though, because, as I have said, their school is very demanding one; and her fellow students from that club are serious musicians, so they ALL need plenty of time to practice their repertoires. Therefore, they all have lots of challenge in fitting those charitable performances into their busy schedules.
So, when filling the "volonteering" part of her application, how many hours of community service a week should she write in there? Some weeks they have no performances and some weeks they have one or two, of different length. Every time they need different amount of time to prepare their performance - sometimes my D just plays solo some pieces she already knows and remembers well, and sometimes she has many rehearsals with her fellow musicians as an ensemble before performing. There are also some periods of not performing at all - during especially busy school weeks or, like this year, when everybody was afraid of flu epidemy and canceled all their performances for a couple of months.
Also, I wonder whether adcoms would look favorably if she would list as the "community service" her involvement in our close-knit immigrant community which involvement also mostly consists of various kinds of musical performances (accompanist for children's/community plays, singer).
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri Jun 1st, 2007 07:35 pm |
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Myau,
There is NO UC community service requirement, nor will doing 100+ hours of community service get anyone into the UC schools.
The UC's look at a wide variety of factors (that's why it's called holistic admissions), including how the student has taken advantage of educational opportunities, both inside and outside of the classroom, special talents, leadership, challenges that the student has faced, etc.
The key to getting into any of the UC's lies in writing very specific essays that give the UC readers clear and direct ways to spot these sorts of things. They aren't looking for kids to regurgitate lists of activities, nor are they looking for any particular type of activity -- rather they are looking for signs that the student has the potential to contribute to the University.
So, someone involved with music, for instance, might answer the essay prompt about educational opportunities by discussing the many hours of lessons and practice they've spent, tying that into how the discipline of music has helped them in the classroom (this is JUST an example). Someone who has led a community service project from start to finish might talk about the project, their role, and how they hope to bring their passion for that cause to a similar project on campus for the essay prompt about what they'll contribute to the campus.
The bottomline is that there really is no SINGLE thing that will get you into the UC's, so don't worry too much about the number of hours of community service your daughter has or has not done. The UC's are looking at a much bigger picture than that.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Fri Jun 1st, 2007 11:39 pm |
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My daughter had no community service listed at all and got accepted at Berkeley and 2 other UC's. (Santa Cruz & Santa Barbara).
Berkeley & UCLA admissions are very competitive and not done strictly by the numbers. A kid could have a perfect GPA and test scores and be rejected from either. I have been told that it doesn't matter what major the student picks, but despite that I really believe that my d. probably got into Berkeley because of her background and interest in studying Slavic languages, as her test scores were quite low for Berkeley. My son was also accepted at Berkeley 6 years ago - he had great test scores but almost no EC's, though he was able to list a healthy dose of community service -- but I think he was accepted because he had a very strong GPA and a lot of math & science, but also applied "undecided" as to major -- I think things might get very competitive for students who designate "engineering" or something like "biology" as a prospective major.
Do your homework, find out what majors are "impacted" (i.e., overenrolled) - and make sure your son does NOT apply for one of those at Berkeley or UCLA. (And if those are the ones he really wants, then make sure he takes a serious look at the less competitive campuses).
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Consolation
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 12:32 am |
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Just_Me wrote: We live in a rural area in the central valley.....just one high school and the biggest news is that they are building a Walmart. Six years ago we were an underperforming school but there have been a lot of changes/improvements since then (we are now a Distinguished School). 63% of our high school students receive free/reduced lunch. Most graduates go straight to work or to community colleges in neighboring towns.
Thanks for the advice re: writing about the farm. I think left on their own, my children probably wouldn't write about farm life as they are afraid of appearing like country bumpkins. My oldest didn't realized what a different upbringing he has had until he went away to college.
Just_Me
Leaving aside everything else, I think that a kid with 2310 SATs from a school with that profile will *definitely* get favorable attention from most admissions people, especially at private schools.
I also have to say that I think your son's ECs, especially working on the family farm, are just great. You have to realize how few kids have that kind of background, compared to the typical high school clubs.
Just a thought....I don't know what your income is, but the East Coast private universities and colleges would probably love a kid like yours, with his stats (both GPA and SATs), especially if he can write a few really good essays that reflect his family background and emphasis on public service. And they have a lot of money to give away. At many of them, the expected contribution from a family with an income of $60K or less is zero--yes, it climbs from there, but you might be favorably surprised, even when compared to in-state UC tuition. And the ad coms at those private schools go by more than just the numbers. If I were you, I would consider a few applications to schools like Yale and Amherst. It is quite possible that he would get in and get a very favorable financial package.
Carolyn, what do you think?
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Just_Me
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 02:23 am |
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Thanks for the encouraging words!
I know "working on a farm" sounds so glamorous, but today, it was hot dirty work, pouring cement (I think sometimes my boys hate living on a farm)!
My son finished his testing. He took three SAT2s and received 800, 800, 790. Honestly, it kind of boggles my mind....
My son wants to stay in California for college. So far, his college list is: UCB, UCLA, UCSD, UCI/UCD, and perhaps Stanford and USC.
-Just Me
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 03:11 pm |
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I think it's wonderful that there are still family farms in California! I often wished mine had that experience. They learn excellent practical problem-solving skills. Although from your boys' perspectives, it's a tough job.
Last edited on Fri Jun 8th, 2007 03:13 pm by WestrnMom
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Just_Me
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 03:59 pm |
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I was kind of thinking about this this morning....
We believe living and working on a farm provided a wonderful growing up experience for our three boys, but it is hard, dirty work. Many farm kids leave, vowing never to return.
I was eagerly anticipating my 19 year old's "homecoming" this summer after finishing his freshman year in Berkeley. I cried when he said he decided to stay at Cal to work, but I can't fault him. He is making good money in an "indoor" job. He is the first to admit that his prior work experience (on the farm) was what got him the job.
My husband grew up in the bay area, and we spent our first year of married life living in Oakland. We moved to the central valley 20 years ago so my husband could realize his dream of owning a fish farm. He loves every minute of it.
My husband is passionate about fish farming, but it doesn't appear that any of my three boys want to follow in his footsteps. Perhaps they will go out and try other things and then come back to the farm or perhaps they never will. I know they will have many fond memories, though, of their childhood.
OK, thanks for letting me ramble. Got to go outside and check the garden.
Last edited on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 02:42 pm by Just_Me
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Just_Me
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Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2007 12:42 pm |
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I wanted to thank all of you that posted on this thread and especially those that were so supportive of the whole farm thing.
My son got into Stanford!!!!
As mentioned before, he has strong stats but relatively few ECs. His main essay was about living in a largely Hispanic area (we are not Hispanic) and working on the farm.
His first question after he read the acceptance email was "Can we afford it?" and then he wondered if he was "smart" enough for Stanford.
I am still in shock.
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