 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
joy
Member
| Joined: | Fri Feb 23rd, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 37 |
| Mana: |    |
|
Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 02:59 am |
|
Any other parents out there feeling relief today?
My daughter's SAT scores were good-she was very happy this morning. I just feel such relief that Subject tests are out of the way, and SAT scores she got today mean that "we're" done with testing!
|
scoop
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 577 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 11:56 am |
|
Congratulations on being finished
|
Deja
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 187 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 02:17 pm |
|
I don't know if I'm feeling relief or not. My son got his two SAT2 scores yesterday. One is fine, but one isn't as good as he'd wanted. I don't know if he's going to re-test. If he applies to any schools needing three SAT2s, he will have to take another one in the fall, and he might retest to raise that lower score.
He's still up in the air as to whether or not he will take the SAT1 again, but he probably won't. He might try the ACT; not sure about that, either.
Still to come are four AP exam scores.
The real relief is going to come next spring when we know where he will be going to college!
|
mackinaw
Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Michigan |
| Posts: | 788 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 04:09 pm |
|
Deja, some schools, including some "elite" schools (e.g., University of Chicago) do not ask for SAT II scores.
|
SoCalMom
Member
| Joined: | Fri May 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 07:47 pm |
|
Ah once again, the debate over the "value added" from taking the SAT II subject tests.
Here's what a parent can know from the printed materials from the colleges. Some of them REQUIRE a certain number of subject tests, and of those a few will be very specific as to which ones (often, it seems, Math Level 2 and a Science for the highly selective tech schools.)
Some of them RECOMMEND but don't require subject tests. Some of the colleges are SILENT on the subject altogether.
For the REQUIRE colleges, we can expect that the subject tests will carry some value. For the RECOMMEND and SILENT colleges, though, what can we or our students conclude?
How much value do they gain from an extra 2-3 hours of testing, added above and beyond regular classroom tests, standardized tests, high school exit exams, SAT I and/or ACT exams, AP tests ... why not, throw in those drivers tests and what ever else is going on in their teenage lives? If the SILENT colleges receive SAT II scores, are the admissions officers going to totally ignore the fact the students went the extra mile, or will they just assume they took the tests for the REQUIRED colleges?
It's a black box.
I feel for the high performing sophomores in our district. It started in late April with the two high school exit exams. It ran into May with however many AP exams each student had, which unfortunately are timed right when the standardized (no child left behind) state exams occur, so most AP students had to take the latter on the make up days at the end of the month, when all the other kids were done, done, done. The AP calculus final was at the end of May even though school ended June 20. The first Saturday of June was the time for SAT I or II.
After watching my DS and friends run this gauntlet, I had thoughts of creating a survival TV show based on the theme of HS students, this being Southern California and all.
|
DesperateDad
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 08:41 pm |
|
SoCalMom:
It's even more nuanced (or confusing):
- UChicago requires SAT I/ACT, but its Dean of Admissions has stated publicly (numerous times) that he doesn't care much for test scores. And, yet, one can submit them as supplemental information (unless of course, submitting SAT I, in which case they go along for the ride).
- I've sat in an info session for one NE LAC twice now, and in both sessions they made clear that they "do not look at subject tests". BUT, speaking with the adcom immediately after the session, I asked: 'is it worth submitting strong subject test scores in addition to ACT?' The quick answer was 'yes, absolutely, submit anything that represents your child's best work efforts..." [Mumbling to myself as I walked away, hmmmmm, didn't she just say 20 minutes ago that they 'do NOT look at subject test scores'....]
As far as "silent" subject test colleges go...... they realize that the UC system requires subject test scores, and therefore many (most?) top Calif kids do take them.
|
Deja
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 187 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 09:44 pm |
|
SoCalMom, I'm confused....your district reschedules the AP exams, rather than the NCLB exams (AP Calculus was at the end of May?)? Or did you mean the AP Calculus final, which was separate from the AP exam? My son had had a conflict with an AP exam and a NCLB statewide assessment. The AP exam was taken on the scheduled date, and the statewide assessment was made up another day.
Mackinaw, I know that many colleges don't require SAT2 scores, but my state's flagship university requires two. If s applies to Cornell's Industrial and Labor Relations School as an alternate choice for Cornell (with Arts & Science being the primary choice), he will have to take the Math SAT2 exam.
Last edited on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 09:47 pm by Deja
|
SoCalMom
Member
| Joined: | Fri May 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 10:04 pm |
|
It would be wonderful if we could reschedule the dates of the AP exams ... That, or the calendar of the school district. In order to get all the work in before the early May AP exams, our AP students get summer homework. When multiplied by three or four classes, it adds up. (On the plus side, there's no yawning gap in learning over the summer.)
At our HS, they know the AP exams take precedence and occur on the specified dates set by the College Board (unless you have a conflict and want to spend even more money taking the exam on a Saturday, which happens to the talented swimmers and track athletes.)
So, AP exams come first. Any CA standardized testing that conflicts with an AP means that student takes that CSAT test later in the month, on the two make up days. Inevitably for the AP students, this always happens. (My DS told me he's going to blow off the CSAT next year. I said no dice. First, if he tanks it, the school could reasonably deny entry to an AP class. Second, I told him with students like you, they will drag you from your bed to take the test. Third, the HS knows already what the AP students focus on.)
As for the regular final in the AP calculus class, I have no idea why it happened in May ... maybe 'cause part of the rest of the time the students built rockets and shot them off. Some underclassmen pine to do so until they discover they must take AP Calculus to do it.
|
mackinaw
Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Michigan |
| Posts: | 788 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 11:44 pm |
|
Deja, what I'm saying is this. If your son doesn't want to submit SAT II scores to a college that says it doesn't either require or recommend them, then he shouldn'y submit them if they look "worse" than his SAT I scores. I'm convinced that at UofChicago, at least, that would not hurt him. If the SAT II scores look better or equivalent to the SAT I, however, then send them (following DD's comments).
When my son applied to Chicago, he knew the SAT II were not required. They were pretty much confirming of his very high SAT I scores, however, so he sent them.
Last edited on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 04:01 am by mackinaw
|
Chedva
Member
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 577 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 04:17 pm |
|
When my son applied to Chicago, he knew the SAT II were not required. They were pretty much confirming of his very high SAT I scores, however, so he sent them.
This is a bit misleading - he may have had no choice, since all scores are sent or none are sent. (The only way someone, prior to the class of 2010, could have sent SAT I and not SAT II, is to send the SAT I score before taking the SAT IIs.)
For the class of 2010, there will apparently be score choice.
|
mackinaw
Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Michigan |
| Posts: | 788 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 04:59 pm |
|
As I recall, Chedva, he sent all his scores to all the schools to which he applied. But he only took his SAT II's in fall of his senior year, and I believe he had sent his SAT I's before he received his SAT II scores.
But my memory is pretty fuzzy about how the rules for sending things worked back then.
Now, as you say, with score choice, students have a lot more flexibility on what they send to whom. And I stand by my advice to Deja.
Last edited on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 05:01 pm by mackinaw
|
DesperateDad
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 02:50 pm |
|
| fwiw: score Choice used to be allowed for Subject Test scores, but that CB policy changed ~6 years ago.
|
outwest
Member
| Joined: | Sun Mar 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | CA |
| Posts: | 598 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 03:23 pm |
|
Mackinaw, You can't choose to hide the SAT2s if you send the SAT1s. They're all on the same printout.
Deja, The SAT2s are harder than the SAT1. Only the very top students take them, so your pool of test takers is more capable thus the lower overall scores as compared to the SAT1. The consensus around here is if you can crack the 600's on the SAT2s you are good to go. Even in the high 500s is good, so don't stress about them too much. To illustrate, my D had received the highest national award and attended a banquet for her score on the American Association of Teachers of German exam. She just got her AP German score yesterday and it was a 5. On the SAT2 German with listening she received a 610 and was very disappointed until she heard what her classmates scores were on it (400's). Then she changed her mind and thought she did pretty well, after all!
|
mackinaw
Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Michigan |
| Posts: | 788 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 04:48 pm |
|
OW, please read the following thread and the linked LA Times story. Beginning with class of 2010 there will be in effect unlimite score choice options between sittings of SAT I or between SAT I and subject tests.
http://admissionsadvice.mywowbb.com/forum14/1963.html
|
DesperateDad
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 05:10 pm |
|
Outwest, I respectfully disagree. The colleges that require three subject tests are all highly selective, and to be competitve at such schools' admissions, test scores that start with a 7+ are important. Of course, statistically there is no difference between a 680 and a 710, but the psychology of the app reader may come into play. Also disagree that subject tests are "harder" than the reasoning test. Subject Tests are curriculum-based, so a strong HS curriculum (and great teachers) usually results in strong scores, particularly if taking the subject test after completing that subject's AP/IB course. High scores are even important for admission to Cal and UCLA absent first generation, low income, or low performing HS. A couple of years ago, the only obvious differentiating factor between similar gpa kids was a 700+ on the Writing score in admission to UCLA. Of course, the HS is competitive, and one of the tops in the state, so admissions (rightfully) expects strong test scores from these kids.
Language tests are different to calibrate, however, for non-native speakers. I've heard many kids do poorly on the listening -- relative to AP scores -- due to the poor quality of the audio-cassettes.
|
CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 3329 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 05:25 pm |
|
DesperateDad wrote: Outwest, I respectfully disagree. The colleges that require three subject tests are all highly selective, and to be competitve at such schools' admissions, test scores that start with a 7+ are important. Of course, statistically there is no difference between a 680 and a 710, but the psychology of the app reader may come into play.
DD, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. I have had a number of kids get into highly selective schools (including the Ivies) with one subject test score in the high 600's. And more than one with one subject test score in the low 600s. Again, colleges, even the most competitive ones, do look at the scores in context -- if they see a student has taken the most challenging courses in that subject possible, has earned top grades, earned a high AP score in the subject, and has good recommendation letters, a 30, 40, or even 50 point difference on a single subject test, or a single part of the SAT, will not automatically rule anyone in or out, regardless of the psychology of any one admissions reader.
Of course, things may go differently for kids who are consistently in the 600's across the board, or who have other weaknesses in their admissions profile. But a strong candidate overall who scores close to but not quite above 700 on one subject test or one section of the SAT is not going to be automatically rejected from ANY school, regardless of its selectivity.
|
DesperateDad
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 07:51 pm |
|
carolyn:
I did not mean to imply that a sub-700 is an auto reject. I concur that test scores are much less valued than the transcript and strength of schedule. But everything else being equal, and absent a hook, higher is better than lower. Most kids I've seen who score well on AP find the corresponding Subject Tests relatively easy if taken at the same time before memory loss occurs.
Few colleges provide admissions data by test scores, but Brown is one that does. At Brown, 700+ CR scorers have a ~20% acceptance rate, in contrast to the 10% acceptance rate for scorers in the 600's, and 9% acceptance rate for scorers in the 500's. (61 acceptees even had CR scores <500.) So yes, a 700+ is not mandatory, but based on this data, which excludes a transcript, 700's scorers are accepted at twice the rate as those with sub-700 scores.
|
CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 3329 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 08:39 pm |
|
| Gotcha, DD. I just didn't want anyone to think that simply because they had a single test score below 700 that they were automatically out of the running.
|
outwest
Member
| Joined: | Sun Mar 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | CA |
| Posts: | 598 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 11:45 pm |
|
Mackinaw, I did not realize they were changing the score choice in a couple years. It won't help for next years seniors, though.
DD, I do think above a 700 is critical in selective admissions on the SAT1 (an important strong part of the whole picture to some colleges). I just don't think that SAT2s being in the 600's will matter much because it IS a reflection on the teaching the student received and less refective of the potential for the student. That is my opinion. Kids from lousy school districts can do well on the SAT1, but poorly on the SAT2s. I do think the colleges will look at 700's on the SAT2s, I just don't think they are that big a deal to any college but the top ten or so, honestly. Even then I don't think the will reject an otherwise strong applicant. There is so much on the application that is so much more important then those. The UCs use them because they are more numbers driven than many colleges, although they are trying to get away from that.
My daughter is near fluent in German, but the German with listening SAT2 uses CDs (no tapes) with native, fast speaking Germans. She said the thing was really tough. I don't think her 610 on it was anything to hide because her other attributes with the language proved it was the low baller.
If you are applying to MIT or Cal Tech you better have near 800s on the math and science SAT2s. But, how many kids are applying to those? The vast majority of colleges are going to like the fact that you took them at all!
|
Current time is 04:25 am | |
|
|
|
|
