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joy
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 11:29 pm |
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My dd loves math and science. She is a junior now, taking Calculus. It is a community college class taught by a college instructor, but at her high school. This class will be on a separate college transcript, not on her high school one. She can take Linear Equations next year if she chooses. She has the option of taking the AP test this year if she wants to, but most students don't since they're already getting college credit.
She is interested in applying to MIT, so we went to a talk by their admissions officer. At the end we asked him if she should take the AP exam, and he said that they don't give credit for community college classes, so if she wanted credit she should take the AP exam. I realize now that probably the other students at her school who don't take the AP exam are going to UCs so they get automatic credit for CA community college classes.
I honestly don't know if she should try to get credit for Calculus. At a school like MIT she might want to start at the beginning there.
On the other hand she is getting 2 semesters of college Calculus, could very well get a 5 on the B/C exam and demonstrate her math ability. If she took 2 semesters of Linear Equations next year as a senior, she would have 4 semesters of Calculus that she would repeat if she didn't have AP credit for the first two.
If she did take the AP exam and did well on it, could she still have the option of taking Calculus 1 again if she wanted to? Would a score on the B/C exam be more meaningful to them than an A in a class since they don't know what the curriculum includes?
I don't want to push her into taking an additional exam unless there's a good reason to do it. If she thought that it would help a non-CA school know more specifically about her math skills, she'd probably be happy to do it!
I'm sorry this is so lengthy-thanks for sticking through to the end!
Joy
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mackinaw
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 11:36 pm |
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Here's what I think. She should take the exam. She has nothing really to lose even if she gets a 4. Although I don't know this for a fact, MIT probably "places" students into different levels of math depending on their background. For this purpose, they probably have three basic indicators: courses and grades earned in hs math, AP exams, and placement exams given during orientation at the university (I don't know for sure that MIT has the third one, but my guess is that they do; I know other colleges do, such as the University of Chicago). I think she would increase her options by taking the AP exam.
Last edited on Sat Jan 5th, 2008 11:40 pm by mackinaw
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 11:49 pm |
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I agree with Mackinaw. I would also add that she should be sure to at least one science subject exam this year. MIT requires them, as does Cal Tech. Since the UC's require Math IIC if the student is taking a math test, she should also take that subject test, instead of Math IC (MIT will take either/or but if there's a chance she will apply to a UC, it makes sense to take Math IIC).
Additionally, MIT seems to have some preference for students who have attended one of their summer programs, and they are also a good way to determine if MIT is right for you, so you might want to check out what options they have available. Make sure it is one of their programs that require an application, if possible.
Last edited on Sat Jan 5th, 2008 11:56 pm by CarolynLawrence
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 04:06 pm |
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Also concur, since an AP score is nationally-normed, and adcoms will know little about your local college rigor. But suggest picking up some self-study guides and practice, practice, practice. Our HS also has such a dual enrollment program for calc, but its thru a local Cal State. Only a handful (out of a 100 kids) take the AP exam every year, and they tend to score poorly bcos the Cal State class uses a different text (horrible, IMO) and the curriculum does not track the AP exam very well - a key section needed to score well on AP is not discussed until after the May exam (classes end late June). And, of course, nor does the teacher give the kids any practice exams or AP prep.
fwiw: MIT is not the only highly selective school that will not give credit for a college-level course taken prior to matriculation to that college, but they will give credit for an AP score. At my son's college, an AP 5 may earn credit in that department, but if the class is retaken at the college, they lose the credit. And, of course, the UCs will give automatic credit for any igetc class or an AP score of 3 or better.
Last edited on Sun Jan 6th, 2008 04:43 pm by DesperateDad
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Alumother
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 04:33 pm |
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Two comments.
First, take the exam. At Princeton for example, they place you into math classes with a combination of your AP score and your SATI math score.
Second, be prepared to have to retake classes in any case. My D was a very good math student in high school, although only CalcBC by senior year since her grammar school only did Algebra 1 and she never did any summer acceleration. Her high school teacher still talks to me about D as a math student - which I only tell you because of what I am about to say.
When she got to Princeton and took multivariable calculus, well, let's just say it was a different world . She did OK, but there is a difference between being a very good math student in high school, and taking advanced mathematics, even just a little bit advanced, at these universities that are responsible for schooling math whizzes....
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joy
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 06:27 pm |
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Thank you all so much! I think I will ask her to look at the list of topics covered on the A/B and B/C exams, and look at her text and decide for herself. She needs to talk to the teacher too to figure out what will be covered by May, since our school continues until June 16.
I am relieved to hear that she can choose not to use the AP credit if she wants to start Calculus again.
I appreciate all your advice-it's a fine line sometimes between being "pushy" and trying to make sure all the doors are open for whatever they might choose.
Desperate Dad- her text is by James Stewart, is that the text you mentioned?
Carolyn-I will check into the summer programs at MIT. I am thrilled to tell you she is done with her subject tests! I learned last year from this site that she needed to take the MathII because she was in Pre-Cal. I spread the word to other families (nobody at the school told the kids in Pre-Cal to sign up, unfortunately) Then because she was in AP Bio and Wd History, she took those 2 also on the same day. The school seems to do a great job of "pushing" sophs into AP and accelerated math classes, but still doesn't mention subject tests until they are juniors, which is really a shame.
I feel slightly better about her taking 4, now possibly 5 AP exams because she won't need to take subject tests this spring . 
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 07:01 pm |
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joy:
Stewart is my personal favorite (particularly the International edition), and is used for calculus at many colleges, including Cal, UCLA & Harvard. But, sadly, our school uses another text.
btw: nearly every applicant to MIT, Caltech and other like engineering schools will have taken Math 2. And, as Carolyn notes, the UCs will not accept Math 1 as one of the two required Subject Tests; if math is taken for a UC app, it must be Math 2.
Last edited on Sun Jan 6th, 2008 07:02 pm by DesperateDad
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lfm
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 07:10 pm |
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I also agree she should take the Calc BC exam. MIT only gives direct credit for Calc BC and Physics C, so clearly they consider them important.
Here is a link to an excellent prep book: http://www.skylit.com/
Stewart is supposed to be a very good book for Calc - close to a standard. Of course, if she is thinking about MIT, she might want to look into Apostol.
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mackinaw
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 07:15 pm |
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Interesting to see Apostol mentioned. I'm out of touch with current usages on this, but I recall being surprised back in the 1960's to learn that both my brother at Caltech and I at Reed were using the same Apostol text. (To be sure, he "got" more of it, and then some, and became a physicist, while I went into social sciences.)
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lfm
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 03:23 pm |
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mackinaw wrote: Interesting to see Apostol mentioned. I'm out of touch with current usages on this, but I recall being surprised back in the 1960's to learn that both my brother at Caltech and I at Reed were using the same Apostol text. (To be sure, he "got" more of it, and then some, and became a physicist, while I went into social sciences.)
It is still being used at Caltech and MIT - at least in parts. I doubt it is used many other places. It has not been updated since 1971 (but then why should it?)
My son used it to self study for Calc BC (we homeschool). He used my husband's copy from his Caltech days and it is being held together with duct tape :-) After we read "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" my dd and I wrote "Property of a Half Blood Goofball" on the inside cover.
He is currently working his way through the second volume.
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globetrotter
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 09:39 pm |
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LFM, did you consider Saxon for calculus at all? If so, and you decided against it, could you explain why?
Is the calculus text you mentioned more advanced than Saxon?
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lfm
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 11:31 pm |
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globetrotter wrote: LFM, did you consider Saxon for calculus at all? If so, and you decided against it, could you explain why?
Is the calculus text you mentioned more advanced than Saxon?
No, I never used Saxon. Both my kids have a lot of math aptitude, and dont need to 'drill and kill' that saxon is known for.
Apostol is probably the most challenging calc book - which might be why only Caltech and MIT still use it.
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globetrotter
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 01:23 am |
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Good to know, thanks.
Yes, we have mixed feelings on Saxon ourselves. My daughter does benefit from the repetition, especially since math is not her great strength. The tedium is getting to my youngest and we have had to do a fair amount of skipping ahead.
So he although he may be a candidate for the MIT/ Caltech material in the future, my daughter is most definitely not. I can cross that one of my list for now
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