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dufay
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 12:31 pm |
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My daughter cyberschools (except for 1 language class at the local Ivy), and has flexiblity regarding her schedule. She is headed for a foreign language/area studies major, and is not naturally gifted in math. She took AP Bio last year rather than physics, according to her interests (5). I thought Calc rather than AP Stats would "look" better, and she gave in. However, I'm having 2nd thoughts abut the AP Calc given her fairly intense schedule (AP Euro, college level English, language, Econ-required/AP Psych), and thought Honors Physics might be easier. Obviously, top tier probably want both math and science, but this is not where she is headed in life.
Her list is short- Penn (legacy), Barnard, McGill-Arts (1st choice right now, and I think they don't care), Pitt.
Comments appreciated.
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mackinaw
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 01:03 pm |
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I may not be up-to-date on the latest preferences on this, but it always seemed to me that psych wasn't a core subject and that stats was a course to be taken after you had run out of other core math subjects (i.e., calc). I'm not saying your plan is wrong but I wonder about whether her taking psych isn't the factor that's putting the extra pressure on that is causing your reservations about calc and physics? Also, isn't govt in there somewhere?
While you may know where she's heading, you may be surprised to learn that she will need more science or math (even calculus) in college depending on how her interests evolve between now and four years from now, not to mention the possibility of post-baccalaureate studies. My daughter, who majored in industrial design in college now finds herself taking econ, calc, and stats "freelance" to buttress her application for MBA programs (she took none of these courses in college).
Last edited on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 01:16 pm by mackinaw
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 03:27 pm |
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I concur with mackinaw for Penn. But in full disclosure, I'm biased against Psych and Soc in HS since I don't believe a HS teacher can bring to the class the richness that a college prof can, particularly a psych prof that has/had an active practice. Also, you should consider that Linguistics is very logic and math-oriented if she heads off into that area of languages. However, if she applies ED to Penn with legacy....
How did your D do in precalc? Did she really struggle, or do well but just didn't like it? fyi - Stats, a great course, only requires a strong background in Algebra, but the concepts lose some kids if they don't keep up. Ditto physics. In contrast, Bio is mostly memorization.
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dufay
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 04:28 pm |
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Thanks for input. Most Psych intro courses are huge lectures, so I'm not sure there's a whole lot to be gained by being able to skip intro and take more advanced courses as a freshman. She has the option of taking Psych at the local Ivy too- it's just a ? of how much $ I can dish out before she even gets to college!
She did fairly well in Precalc (online); just one meltdown over a proof. I know I got thru Calc in college, and I'm not math smart. It was worthless. I wish stats had been required for med school. I use it every day. She's increasingly feeling the pressure of playing the game to get into college (like every other normal overachieving HSer right now), and resents it.
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 05:14 pm |
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Most Psych intro courses are huge lectures...
Absolutely true, but at the large state Uni I attended, the Psych 1 Prof was one of the best profs in the school - he was simply incredible.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 08:46 pm |
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Penn in particular really likes to see a challenging senior year schedule. They also tend to have a strong preference for a 4th year of math. However, I just checked for you, and you are correct: McGill Arts (not arts & science) doesn't specify that math is required senior year. Doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer to see it on the transcript, but it is not required.
Aside from that issue, many physics courses (especially those labeled "honors") require strong math skills through calculus. So, I would be careful about assuming that honors physics will be any easier that calculus, and I'd research the curriculum of the physics course and how it will be taught to see if strong and/or advanced math skills are needed to succeed in it.
I feel for your daughter: it's hard to make these sorts of decisions, especially when you strongly dislike a subject.
Last edited on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 08:55 pm by CarolynLawrence
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 08:47 pm |
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dufay wrote: Thanks for input. Most Psych intro courses are huge lectures,
Not always. My daughter's intro psych class had 20 students. 
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dufay
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 10:53 pm |
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| At Penn Intro Psych is "capped" at 350.
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Deja
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Posted: Tue Sep 11th, 2007 03:16 pm |
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My son is a junior, taking 8 classes, and told me yesterday that he is going to go to his guidance counselor to talk about dropping out of AP Calculus AB. He is already taking AP US History, AP Bio, and AP English Language & Composition, plus doing an Independent Study to take AP Micro- and Macroeconomics exams (our school system does not offer any economics courses). And then there are the other three courses (Legal Oratory & Debate, Topics in Performance Theatre, and Spanish 4.
He is planning on majoring in Poli Sci or Government and Economics. If he didn't have such an extreme interest in econ, he wouldn't have even attempted Calculus. The teacher is not good, he isn't clicking with her teaching style, and I see troubled waters ahead.
While doubly accelerated in math, he doesn't like math and is a solid B student (except in Geometry, which he aced with very little effort). He got a B in Precalculus/Math Analysis last year.
Dh is an engineer, and of course thinks it's ridiculous that ds should drop Calculus. Ds doesn't take instruction from dh very well (but we do know a university prof in our neighborhood who could tutor ds).
Ds is talking to the GC about auditing the Calc AB class this year, and taking it for credit next year (possibly taking BC, which has a better teacher). Another option is taking it at the community college this summer, when he will have more time to devote to the subject. If he doesn't audit it (don't know the rules yet about this), he could take Personal Finance or NON AP probability or stats. But he doesn't want his whole schedule rearranged (with possibly different teachers for other subjects). He couldn't drop into AP Stats because he didn't do the summer assignment. He may not have any math at all on his schedule for junior year.
I am wondering how colleges would look at this....if he didn't take it at the high school, but DID take it at the community college next summer, would it really matter is he showed no math at all on his junior year hs transcript? His schedule is just so crammed...8 courses, no lunch, Scholastic Bowl, debate, forensics, drama, mock trial/model judiciary, having to be at his bus stop by 6 a.m. every morning...
I think he should be able to enjoy high school, and it would take a lot of stress off if he wasn't taking Calculus. He's really enthusiastic about all of his other teachers, including the Spanish and AP teachers (he's been lukewarm on science and foreign language for years now).
Any thoughts?
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Chedva
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Posted: Tue Sep 11th, 2007 04:18 pm |
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Is it possible for him to take a calculus course that isn't AP? My d did that for her senior year, having taken only regular (non-honors) math classes since 10th grade. She is also a humanities/social sciences type kid, and did quite well in the admissions game.
If he's at the point in his math studies where he can take AP Calc as a junior, I don't think there'll be a problem if he doesn't have 11th grade math. Most kids at d's school, including those who get into Ivies, don't take calculus until senior year.
Assuming he does continue with AP Calc (or does it at community college), where does that leave him for senior year? Multi-variate? Seems tough for a non-science/math major. So it looks like he might only have 3 years of math anyway. I'd delay calculus until senior year. (Then the grade doesn't matter that much either.)
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mackinaw
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Posted: Tue Sep 11th, 2007 04:25 pm |
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Deja,
Seems that your son "does it all," and I can imagine that debate alone eats up gobs of time. He is going to need calculus if he intends to major in econ in college, or even to declare that as a possible intended major. My guess is that whether he takes it junior year or takes it in summer at local community college doesn't matter as much as the fact that he just takes it and does reasonably well.
Seems also that your son has high math aptitude but doesn't like the way it's taught by some teachers or perhaps (my son's downfall on occasion) the relentless homework assignments. "Math made boring" is how I would describe my son's experience from about 3rd grade on. It was never difficult for him, just made boring through most of his school years (except one wonderful 7th grade year out in Cali when I was on sabbatical). Eventually he did major in econ in college, and took lots of math and stats for that major and did fine (once he once again realized that he had to build skills incrementally and that meant doing all the homework).
So I hope you can find a way for your son to get through this, do make sure he has calculus on his record when he makes his college applications. But something does have to give. . . . (Maybe even the AP econ?)
Added: I agree with Chedva that if he's already double accelerated, it won't hurt that he doesn't take the calc junior year, but he really does have to take that course (AB or BC) sometime, somewhere (including equivalent at local college). My son "ran out of math" his junior year in h.s., and didn't want to take more his senior year, which he could have at the local college. He put his extra time into debate and his hobbies....
Last edited on Tue Sep 11th, 2007 07:16 pm by mackinaw
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Tue Sep 11th, 2007 05:09 pm |
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Deja: Yikes, what a schedule.
Econ is calc-heavy at many colleges (my son's college requires calc for Intro Econ), so it will be a must sometime. But, as I posted elsewhere, I think it better to take it in HS, if possible, where the classes are usually smaller, and more individual attention is available.
Bcos your son is already ahead in math, I don't think it negative that he doesn't take math this year, particularly if he can pick it up over the summer. Of course, the typical progression for such kids is AP Stats as a Junior if taking Calc junior year. [Teacher's aide would be better than Personal Consumer Finance, IMO, which at our HS is not even college prep.]
Since colleges know that liberal arts kids change their majors 2-3 times I don't know how much value your S will adding to his app by showing Econ on his HS transcript. Perhaps Carolyn can weigh in.
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Deja
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Posted: Tue Sep 11th, 2007 05:49 pm |
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Thanks for the ideas, everyone. To answer some questions -- there is not a non-AP Calculus in our school system, which is a shame. It would have been a great alternative. He already has four years of high school math. Just as his high school credit courses count in his GPA, so do those courses count as years of a subject. He's been taking high school credit courses since 6th grade, and it was hard convincing that preadolescent that these grades count. The lightbulb went off at the beginning of freshman year, and now he's playing catch-up from those mostly B's in high school courses in middle school. (Our school system has a 94 and up=A scale, with no pluses or minuses.) AP, IB and some math/science academy classes are weighted.
Only the math/science academy (which he does not attend) has math beyond Calculus BC (it has the multivariable course) taught at the high school. At the other 10 regular high schools, the students who finish Calculus in 11th grade usually take AP Statistics or AP Computer Science.
About the Independent Study on economics -- this was all his idea, as he is extremely interested in economics. His AP Government teacher from last year is his mentor. For him, this is probably the subject that he has the most passion and interest in at this point, so even if it doesn't end up being particularly worthwhile in terms of college admissions or credit, he's doing it because he wants to. And, since so many subjects in high school are "required," I think it's very important to let him follow his passion.
Yes, he's a busy boy. The monthly regional debate tournaments and monthly regional forensics tournaments start up again next month, as do the weekly Scholastic Bowl matches (this year he is the captain). And today he's auditioning for the school play -- "Dead Man Walking."
Debate is his favorite activity, though, and this year there are lots of hungry kids looking to snatch his state championship Lincoln Douglas title away from him. 
I believe his year (Class of 2009) is the hump for college applications in our state, and possibly in the country. He has to be focused on grades, scores, and ECs. But I've told him over and over again that he has to have some fun. He enjoys his extracurriculars, and enjoys being engaged in his classes. He's too young to get so stressed out, and Calculus is going to ruin what otherwise is looking to be a very good year.
I'll let everyone know what the GC says today. He's probably already seen her (he was going to see her this block, which lets out in 11 minutes).
Last edited on Tue Sep 11th, 2007 05:51 pm by Deja
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Deja
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Posted: Wed Sep 12th, 2007 03:20 pm |
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Update
Yesterday ds's session with the GC was great. She understood his concerns, and expressed that she'd heard the same comments about the Calculus teacher. Now I didn't know this, but students can drop AP courses at any time during the first semester (not the first two weeks like other courses), without penalty. She also suggested that if ds ends up dropping, that second semester he drop in to a Math Analysis/Precalculus class to brush up on his skills before taking Calculus at the community college. She also had forms for community college registration.
Apparently one can audit courses only after they have taken them. The idea is that one can take them to brush up on skills (for example, a student in foreign language is overwhelmed at one level and needs to audit a lower level or a student who is doing what ds is doing).
I know that it seems as if I'm sweating the small stuff. I guess I'm reading too much of the hysterical micromanaging that's going on over at CC. But it is true that what got kids into college five years ago might not work now, because of the simple fact that there are so many more kids applying to college. And it seems that it's hammered in over and over that to take anything less than the most rigorous course one can is to ruin one's chances at very selective colleges.
Last edited on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 05:05 pm by Deja
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Alumother
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Posted: Wed Sep 12th, 2007 03:50 pm |
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| Are there really that many more kids now? My daughter applied three years ago. Is it really substantively different for my son, applying this year?
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Wed Sep 12th, 2007 04:30 pm |
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Alumother wrote: Are there really that many more kids now? My daughter applied three years ago. Is it really substantively different for my son, applying this year?
Here is some data from the US Department of Education:
In fall 2005, 17.487 million students were enrolled in post-secondary institutions (this includes 4 year, 2 year)
In fall 2006, the number rose to 17.648 million
Projected figure for fall 2007 (firm number not yet released) 17.916 million
Projected fall 2008 18,202 million
Projected fall 2009 18,480 million
The growth is attributable to a larger number of high school graduates each year and a higher percentage going on to post-secondary education. So, bttween the time your daughter applied in 2005 and next fall, there will be about 4% more kids heading off to college. Again, remember that these numbers are for all post-secondary school options, not just four year schools.
However, some other important data points to keep in mind:
- According to UCLA's Higher Education Research Institute (HERI), which conducts an annual survey of 260,000 college freshmen, 73% reported they applied to four or fewer colleges - that figure has not changed substantially over the last few years.
- Also according to HERI, 90% of college freshmen reported they were attending either their first or second choice college last year
- According to the National Association for College Admissions Counseling (NACAC), the average acceptance rate at U.S. colleges remains at 70%
- According to my count (), of the 2,600 not-for-profit 4 year institutions, only around 5%or so have admit rates of less than 50%. That's about the same percentage as it was three years ago.
- However, application numbers have increased and admit rates have dropped most noticably in the past five or so years at those same 5% or so schools.
- Anecdotally, the trend I see is for students aiming at the most selective schools to be sending out more applications in a kind of helter-skelter fashion. I don't see the same trend among kids who are applying to schools with more favorable admit rates. In short, there's a sort of bottle neck developing around those 5% of schools -- students aiming there are the ones tending to send out more applications, but here's the thing: for the most part, they're all sending them to the SAME 5% of schools instead of casting a wider net. (To me "casting a wider net" doesn't mean tacking on a safety or two, it means actually having your list be comprised by more than just schools that have low admit rates)
So, the bottomline, in my opinion (and I stress: this is my opinion. Take it or leave it, makes no difference to me) is this: Yes, students applying only to the most selective schools (those taking less than 50%) are facing steeper numbers, but there are still plenty of great schools out there where getting in is not an uphill battle.
There is also plenty of room on college campuses for anyone who wants to go to college - there is NO college seat shortage across the board and no one should panic that there isn't a seat for them somewhere.
But, because students are sending more applications to the schools that are already highly selective to begin with, there is a shortage among those schools in terms of seats for those who will only consider that same pool of schools. However, keep in mind that those same schools are STILL accepting students, so it is not as if the doors are shut entirely. Just that the competition to open the door is steep.
This is why I keep beating the same drum: Students aiming at the most selective schools need to balance their list with less selective but still excellent schools.
But, for the vast majority of students, getting into college is NOT as tough as the media would like us to believe. In fact, it's fairly easy for most kids. But, anyone who only has a list built on schools taking 20% or less of applicants is playing a risky game indeed.
Last edited on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 04:44 pm by CarolynLawrence
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Wed Sep 12th, 2007 11:08 pm |
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Carolyn, I'm relieved to see those statistics. I'm sad that students must take 4-6 AP courses just to be competitive at elite colleges. The original purpose of AP courses was to delve into subjects one is especially interested in at a higher level than most high school courses go into. They were never intended to be piled on so as to become competitive for college admissions. The trend seems to be slowly heading back toward the original purpose for those courses. In the meantime, I see more kids stressed out over impossible schedules. I don't care how intelligent a student is, the pressure of preparing for 4 or more AP classes is very intense. We would not let our children take that many AP/honors courses, which meant focusing on different college lists, but in the end, the results have proved to be just fine. If I had a high school junior right now, I'd let my child take as many APs as possible if I felt it was doable, but I would not be happy about it.
They became very popular locally among parents who thought APs would shave off 1-2 years of college coursework and save them money. However, I've heard from more parents whose children took APs and then attended private schools, that they are not counted toward college credits at some of the LACs, and if they are, it's not possible to use them to offset entire years of education (ie freshman and/or sophomore years) as it was in the past.
Last edited on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 11:09 pm by WestrnMom
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Thu Sep 13th, 2007 12:23 am |
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| Actually, although it may seem like everyone is taking AP courses, in reality, according to the College Board, only 24.2% of students actually do take them. Only 14% get scores of 3 or above. Last edited on Thu Sep 13th, 2007 01:06 am by CarolynLawrence
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Consolation
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Posted: Sun Sep 16th, 2007 09:49 pm |
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This year, my son is taking AP Chem, AP Physics, AP Calculus, AP Spanish, AP French Literature, and Classic Novel from the "AP thread" of English courses (they have this thread of semester courses at our HS instead of yearlong "AP" classes), plus another major honors course. Last year he took AP French Language and AP Bio, as well as a couple of other AP thread courses in English. Sophomore year he took AP Modern European History.
He is taking these courses not to try to get credit, or specifically to get into college. (Except for AP Physics. He likes Physics very much but is unenthused about the teacher, so he probably would wait to take it until college if not for the strong message from some of his target schools that they want to see Physics on the transcript.) The reason he is taking these classes--and the honors Humanities course-- is that they are typically the most interesting, with the most involved students.
I, for one, am happy that our school offers something more challenging for committed students. I've long been puzzled by the apparent conflict between our society's oft-voiced dismay that our students so often underperform in comparison to students from other industrialized nations, and the perhaps-equally oft-voiced opinion that it is wrong to "pressure" them too much by encouraging them to take challenging courses.
My view tends to be that the vast majority of kids would benefit from more challenge throughout their school years.
Last edited on Sun Sep 16th, 2007 10:56 pm by Consolation
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outwest
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Posted: Mon Sep 17th, 2007 03:23 pm |
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My daughter signed up for 4 AP classes this year and because of schedule conflicts couldn't get AP Stats. Since she took Calculus last year there is no other math for her, so she has no math. She had to choose between AP Stats, AP German and Physics because all were only offered 2nd and 3rd period. It has caused a lot of anxiety having to do with college admissions. The final decision was that "colleges" would rather see Physics then AP Stats. As it turns out, she is extremely busy with the three she has plus her other three classes. Physics is math based, too, so maybe that helps. Her AP's are Government, Literature and German. We're just going to have to not sweat it.
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