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pencilnpaper
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| Joined: | Wed Mar 8th, 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 11th, 2007 02:25 pm |
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Thanks Carolyn for the timely resourse (once again!). It also reminded me to re-visit the USNews outline during my daughter's decision making process. Ignoring the particular ranking, it does briefly outline on a few pages some of the school facts. Seeing them in one place is a nice "study guide".
The Pomona article was especially interesting. I was really mad when I read it. Maybe we should have bought the second home we saw last year. It was a great project at a great price. We decided against it however, knowing it would make $$ very tight during the college years. However, if we had that second mortgage, and $$ were tight, it appears our children may have been awarded a more generous grant, despite owning two properties? I keep reading it is better to have saved the money, but I feel as if I were punished again for being frugal!
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DesperateDad
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
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Posted: Wed Apr 11th, 2007 03:53 pm |
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| I, too, was struck by the attitude: this dad has real estate investments (that's plural folks), so let's give the kid more money. Regardless of the net mortgages, it just has the appearance of buying a kid that they want. Why else would a finaid officer say the parent is over-estimating property value, and just reduce it w/o any documentation. When does a finaid expert become a real estate guru with expertise on local market conditions?
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CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 11th, 2007 06:37 pm |
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DD and Pencil, that was my reaction too -- I didn't see how they could just make a summary judgement like that. And, did anyone else kind of cringe at the mention that the FA office "did research on the web" to see what the real value of the homes might be? It kind of made my skin crawl a bit.
I like a recent proposal I read to just have actual income tax returns be used for FA purposes instead of a separate process like the FAFSA. Apparently, it would not be all that difficult for the IRS to "share" income tax returns. Of course, the Profile schools would still insist on more information....
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Northeastmom
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Posted: Wed Apr 11th, 2007 06:48 pm |
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| Does anyone have a link to this article?
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Wed Apr 11th, 2007 08:16 pm |
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You can find the links on my blog: http://collegehunt.blogspot.com/2007/04/behind-scenes-look-at-financial-aid.html
I'm actually going to move this thread to a new section I just started - a discussion of articles and links from my blog.
Last edited on Wed Apr 11th, 2007 08:21 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Northeastmom
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Posted: Wed Apr 11th, 2007 08:44 pm |
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| Carolyn, Thanks. When I did not see the link here, I actually went to your blog, but I guess I just missed it since I just scanned the left column. Thanks. Last edited on Wed Apr 11th, 2007 08:45 pm by Northeastmom
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Northeastmom
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Posted: Wed Apr 11th, 2007 09:04 pm |
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How do you underreport your retirement contribution? That is something that is an exact amount, in black and white. I don't get it.
There are 2 people in my neighborhood who completely did an overhaul on their primary residences (untouched basically since they moved in when kids were knee high) just 2 years prior to their kids attending a 45,000+ private school. Interestingly both families have kids at the same private. I was thinking that this is how they either pulled equity out, or got rid of some cash. One home had everything remodeled. The other family put on a new roof, siding, windows, new floors, furnace (maybe new AC, but not sure). I know that the family that had the more modest renovation did not get any financial aid (their son did get merit aid). They were very upset by the lack of financial aid, and are now trying to convince him to transfer, but so far he is unwilling. They have 3 more kids to educate. It will be interesting to see where they all end up.
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 04:40 am |
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The article made me realize I'm of two minds on Financial Aid evaluations.
On the one hand, I was appalled to see the reaction to these cash strapped parents was to help their child go to college because it seemed they had mismanaged themselves into this situation. Too many assets locked up in real estate...too bad. Surely, I thought, there must be a way to distinguish between genuine deprivation and financial recklessness (or self-indulgence). Why they need aid makes a difference...
Or does it? I replied to myself. Why should the student suffer because of his/her parents' situation, self-inflicted or not? The aid is really to help the student, not the parents. So it is graciously offered.
I haven't resolved this yet. Anyone with any additional thoughts?
Last edited on Mon Apr 16th, 2007 04:45 am by Descartes
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leftcoast
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 07:32 am |
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I'm rather surprised at the reactions here -- did you guys miss the fact that this is a case of divorced parents, and it was the noncustodial parent that had the overstated real estate value?
Here's a quick lesson in reality: It is extremely rare for a divorced, noncustodial parent to be willing to contribute ANYTHING above and beyond what is legally mandated to the support of their children. In California (the state where Pomona is located), the law does not impose any parental obligation of support beyond age 18 -- so except in the rare cases where the parties have agreed to continued support in the marital settlement agreement, the reality is that the noncustodial parent will likely contribute -0- no matter what he is capable of coming up with.
If you reread the article you will see that it said in 50% of the cases, the noncustodial parent refuses to even provide the paperwork. Do you know what happens in those cases? The students get no aid whatsoever. If the college does not receive the information, they simply will not write an aid package for them. At best they will get whatever they qualify for from outside sources -- but not a dime of college grant money.
So, right off the bat -- according to figures provided in that article -- half the students from single parent households will get no aid whatsoever from Pomona. In many cases the parents have been divorced for years and contact with the ex-parent is minimal -- but if there is any contact at all, the colleges will not waive that requirement.
It is likely that what was going on in that case is that there was paperwork showing that the mom received little or no money from the father, but the father -- having no incentive to be conservative -- submitted paperwork showing high assets which in turn drove up the EFC. So the financial aid person is looking to help out the student, who may come from very modest circumstances. So double checking the value of the stated assets is a good start. (My own ex husband gives -0- money -- so whatever the college deems is his "share" of expenses will come directly out of my pocket, assuming that I can come up with it -- if not, my daughter will have to withdraw from college).
There usually are very good reasons behind a divorce. And there are a lot of kids who have grown up in cramped houses and apartments and near-poverty who must attend community colleges or public universities because they've got a poor mom but a rich dad who long since moved on to a different life and simply doesn't care.
My guess is that the Pomona financial aid office is well aware that they are losing most of the kids they admit from single parent homes because of the inequities in the financial aid system. It's very likely that even with the reduction in the valuation of the noncustodial parent assets, the family contribution is still substantially above the amount that would be assessed if the father's income were not considered.
Last edited on Thu Apr 12th, 2007 07:51 am by leftcoast
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 04:54 am |
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While I didn't miss the detail about the divorce, I did simply assume that the father was providing paperwork with the intention of (A) doing his part to support his child's college education and (B) seeking to maximize the chances for aid from the school despite his contribution.
You are absolutely right, however: I never considered that he would be making no contribution and, now that you have pointed it out, I agree that this could very well be the case. I guess I was projecting that, were I divorced, I would still be committed to my children's futures, but I suppose that, sadly, that sentiment isn't shared by everyone.
In any case, I had no idea that FA could be so regularly problematic for children of divorced parents. You have my thanks for the insight, my sympathy for your situation, and my admiration for persevering in spite of it.
Last edited on Mon Apr 16th, 2007 05:17 am by Descartes
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DesperateDad
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 04:17 pm |
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I, too, did not miss the point of the divorce. But, it doesn't change my comment. Let's not confuse the fact that many non-custodial parents refuse to supply paperwork with this case, in which the dad did comply. Further, let's not apply a Calif law which affects the state colleges to a private college, particularly in this case bcos, again, the non-custodial did complete the paperwork. Thus, Calif law, such that it is, is not relevant.
IMO, a non-custodial "rich" parent refusing to pay for his bio kids' college is not much different than a custodial "rich" parent who refuses to pay for his bio kids' college. If colleges routinely ignored the a divorced spouse's income, the divorce rate in this country could easily climb to near 100% of high achieving high school seniors as those high achievers' parents would jet off to the Dominican Republic (or wherever) for a "quickie divorce" so that little Johnny or Suzie would recieve a full ride at HYPSM (and Pomona). With the money saved on tuition, the now-divorced family could buy a condo in Hawaii or Aruba.
My guess is that the Pomona financial aid office is well aware that they are losing most of the kids they admit from single parent homes.
Leftcoast, you may be exactly right. But, if so let's change the tenor of the article to clearly illustrate Pomona's worthy goal of increasing economic diversity. (However, it still does not change the fact that the FA office doesn't use much more than a Ouiji board to estimate home value.)
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 04:54 pm |
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leftcoast wrote:
Here's a quick lesson in reality: It is extremely rare for a divorced, noncustodial parent to be willing to contribute ANYTHING above and beyond what is legally mandated to the support of their children.noncustodial parent will likely contribute -0- no matter what he is capable of coming up with.
As a divorced, noncustodial parent who paid all college bills (tuition, fees, R&B, and working around $) for S2, S3, S4, D1 (S1 had graduated before the divorce) I must respond to the above statement.
Since my ex-wife was not employed, I and my wife were responsible for both child support (outside of college costs) and alimony. They started their careers without any college loans outstanding, D1 had some, but my wife and I paid those. We were blessed with hard working students who gained some scholarships and were awarded some financial aid grants, so the overall costs were reasonably manageable.
Further, although D1 and S4 were adults and college graduates, their pursue of a graduate degree was supported by us as well. S1, S2 and S3 all were able to complete their graduate schools without aid from us.
I feel that my wife and I were not "extremely rare" parents. Happily my wife married me and my five children as a package. Seeing them achieve their educational goals pleased both of us.
Individuals have conflicts and sad events occur in many lives, but as DesperateDad said the topic was about Ponoma's procedure re: determining financial aid.
PS: All of our children attended private colleges and the divorce agreement did not have any mandated requirements on college costs or payments.
Last edited on Mon Apr 16th, 2007 04:58 pm by jocelynDAD
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CalifCarolyn
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 05:18 pm |
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jocelynDAD wrote
I feel that my wife and I were not "extremely rare" parents. Happily my wife married me and my five children as a package. Seeing them achieve their educational goals pleased both of us.
what a wonderful legacy to give to your kids...you and your kids were lucky to have her come into your lives (and I am sure she is a lucky woman too).....
now onto being wonderful Grandparents 
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leftcoast
Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 05:03 am |
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I feel that my wife and I were not "extremely rare" parents. Happily my wife married me and my five children as a package. I'm relying on published statistics with my statement about "extremely rare". In the vast majority of divorces, the noncustodial spouse does not provide any financial support beyond what is legally mandated; and in a significant number of cases - doesn't pay that either and the custodial parent must take legal action to enforce existing legal obligations.
Thats one reason the FAFSA system doe NOT ask for information from the noncustodial spouse.
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 04:33 pm |
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leftcoast:
while the federal methodology excludes income from non-custodial parents, it does include the income from a stepparent married to a custodial parent. Do you happen to know if the the Institutional Methodology also includes the income from a stepparent married to a custodial parent?
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leftcoast
Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 07:13 pm |
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The CSS Profile asks for all income from both households, but the colleges that use it vary on their approach as to how they apply it. Some will consider both household incomes, but I think it is more common for them to take an either/or approach as to 2nd parent (if the mom is the custodial parent, then either the stepfather or else the biological father, but not both).
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 08:48 pm |
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| ok, thanks for the info.
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 09:01 pm |
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For purposes of financial aid, when should parents stop taking students as deductions? If a student plans to go to grad school, should that happen during senior year so the FAFSA filled out the following January reflects that the student is independent?
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leftcoast
Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 12:43 am |
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I don't think the tax dependency status is relevant for purposes of the FAFSA; for FAFSA purposes they will be treated as independent if they turn 24 during the calendar year for which aid is sought for the fall semester, or if they will be enrolled in a master's or doctoral program.
It's a big shift. My son has supported himself since age 20 and I have not claimed him as a dependent since 2003 -- but at age 23 last year, he did not qualify for any financial aid. He has paid all expenses from his savings and current earnings. He turns 24 this month, and he has received notice that will get a Pell grant next year, plus a university grant - and he just also received word that he has been awarded a $1,000 scholarship. Since his tuition and expenses at Humboldt are around $3200, he will be getting a a check to apply toward his living expenses. Since he will also be getting educational benefits from his current Americorps position, I think he'll be able to finish college without taking any loans.
I would note that some private colleges do look towards parental income for graduate school, particularly law schools and medical schools -- but the issue isn't whether you claim your kid as a dependent, it's whether you are actually supporting him. If the kid is in school during 5 months of the year and receives more than half of his support from a parent, then the kid needs to file his taxes with dependent status indicated whether or not the parents actually claim the exemption.
Last edited on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 12:54 am by leftcoast
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binx
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Posted: Fri Apr 20th, 2007 07:45 pm |
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My H and I read this article when Carolyn first posted it. It was great background to have for appealing our Furman financial aid packet. We specifically did or didn't do certain things, following the article suggestions. Plus, it helped us have realistic expectations about what might happen.
Today we got the results in the mail. Furman has added a $7550 grant to the package, changed the unsubsidized load to sub, added a Perkins loan and a Federal Work Study. We are surprised with the results, frankly, because of the change in "federal" status. Our FAFSA, as you probably have heard me whine already, was not an accurate picture of our income due to some hefty reimbursements. I didn't know that an individual school has the power to change "federal" results. I thought they would just have to dip into their own resources if they felt that FAFSA wasn't right.
Anybody know if this info gets shared among the other schools? Or would we have had to appeal at each? Not that it matters now. We already also appealed Miami's package (at their request!) But since they gave D a fairly generous package already, I'm not sure it will make a difference.
Anyway, the end result is that the bottom line isn't hugely different. Furman's first year cost has dropped to a reasonable level, but the other three years, I'm afraid, would be unchanged. So we're looking at a 4 year cost at Furman of about $110,000 (excluding loans) vs. a 4 year cost at Miami of $64,500. (Adding a 5th year at Miami, with no aid, still comes out cheaper - unless you add in loss of income from that extra year of school.)
There are still things we like better about Furman, and other things we like better about Miami. This is so hard!
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