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zippy
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 07:02 pm |
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D will be junior next year and is signed up for honors trig and pre-calc. She is in honors Algebra II this year and is holding onto an A by her fingertips. She wanted to take regular trig and pre-calc next year instead of honors because some of her friends this year dropped out of honors and told her it was hard. They are doing very well, however, in regular trig and pre-calc. I wouldn't let her register for regular because she also heard from same friends that she wouldn't be able to handle AP Euro and honors chemistry so I let her take regular chemsitry. She is getting and A in Chem and if she cracked a book in that class this year I would be surprised, so I didn't buy the "too much work" argument for next year.
My question is, if it is looking like she might get B's or C's next year in honors math (read long thread on other forum about how one bad math grade may have tanked a girl's chances at more selective colleges and got very nervous) how damaging would it be to switch into regular pre-calc and trig? She has aspirations of IR and I have put together a list of schools that could work for that, some of which are pretty selective, i.e. Georgetown, JHU, Chicago, Macalester, and some a little less so, Barnard, Tufts, American, GWU.
Now, I realize that the situation of the girl on the other forum probably had more to it than just one C in math, but would taking non-honors math remove the more selective schools I mentioned as a possibility for D? She has already not taken honors chemistry and is not taking honors American Gov't because she is taking it this summer so that by her senior year she can add another language. Plus she would not want to get out of it in college since it may be ther first class in her major (this is per my advice as a former poli sci professor).
Does anyone else find this pressure just a little nuts?
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Chedva
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 08:59 pm |
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Sorry for butting in, but just wanted to let you know about my d's results. She dropped honors math in 10th grade, took standard geometry (10th), pre-calc (11th), and calculus (12th). Her junior year grades dropped a bit, but it had nothing to do with the standard pre-calc, in which she got an A.
She got into University of Richmond, University of Rochester, Muhlenberg, Union (NY) and UVM. She was waitlisted at Vassar. Rejected at Wesleyan, Amherst (but we weren't expecting anything else from those two).
I don't think that standard calculus, by itself, hurt her at all.
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outwest
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 10:57 pm |
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This is what I told my DD when she was vascilating about AP US History last Spring:
Take the AP class. You can always drop down to the regular class after a month if you see that you just can't handle the AP. But, if you are in the regular class and realize it was a mistake there is no way to move up.
This is what she did this year and realized that all the moaning she had heard from others about this AP class wasn't true for her. In fact, she listened to those same moaners and took Calculus AB instead of BC this year ("BC is SOOOO hard," they whined). After a month she realized AB was easy for her, but when she went to find out about moving up to BC she was told, "Nope, too late."
Take the honors and set a date to reassess it about a month after school starts. She can drop down if she needs to (it would be a wickedly bad high school that wouldn't allow that). The fact that she changed classes would not show up on the transcript, either.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 05:29 am |
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Outwest, not all schools are as easygoing when it comes to dropping an honors or AP class... my daughter really wanted out of an AP class her senior year. She was so stressed over the class that I told her to make an appointment with the family doctor and talk with her about what she was going through -- the doctor ended up writing a note for my d. to take to school to get out of the class, and they still wouldn't let her drop. So that advice doesn't always work.
Zippy, I've also got an anecdote of a kid who didn't take honors math and got into top colleges (Barnard & Chicago). My daughter didn't even have any math beyond algebra II, her sophomore year -- but then my daughter went to live in Russia when she was your daughter's age, so anecdotes aren't worth much because you don't see the whole story.
My personal take is that you should lay out your concerns to your daughter and then let her make her own decisions, understanding the consequences -- and don't start putting together lists of schools until after PSATs are in, midway through junior year. Fit the school to the student, rather than try to set a bunch of lofty goals that maybe don't fit your daughter's personality. I mean -- a kid who is deterred from a class because she hears that it is hard maybe isn't the type of kid who should be aiming for a really competitive college. The consequences are simple to explain: your daughter will be more likely to win admission to a top college if she take as many advanced courses as she can reasonably fit into her schedule: colleges like to see kids who relish a challenge. (Which is why gallavanting off to Russia worked for my daughter).
But most people on this board probably don't agree with my attitude. I have a laid back parenting style: I figure my job was to feed 'em, clothe 'em, and try my darndest to make sure that the kids grew up to be honest and law-abiding .... and I honestly didn't care whether they ended up at community college or an Ivy or anything in between. As long as they don't end up homeless or in jail, I'm happy.
However, that being said, you've got your list messed up. Barnard is harder to get into than Chicago, probably about the same as Tufts. Basic admission stats:
2006 admit rate:
Georgetown: 22%
Barnard: 26%
Tufts: 27%
JHU: 27%
Chicago: 38%
GWU: 38%
Macalester: 39%
American: 53%
These numbers can fluctuate a little year by year, which is why I clustered them above.
Anyway... if your daughter asked my advice, then I'd tell her to stick with the honors classes.... but my advice to the PARENT is not to stress out about the process. High school is a time for growth and exploration, and there will be good choices in the end.
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 09:18 am |
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Zippy:
Leftcoast is right IMO. High school should not be seen as preparation to get accepted at selective colleges.
The individual is just that an individual and the stress that can be imposed on a teenager over class selection in the sophomore/junior years with an eye to what the ADcom's will think is over the top IMO.
As for the colleges that you mentioned. Well any college that has acceptance rates in the 30ths and 20ths is a college that rejects most of their applicants.
Besides, there is a quality of selection known as self-selection that is when the only students who apply are those that meet the stated GPA/SAT norms or above.
U of Chicago, the Ivies (including Bernard) are exactly those schools. The % given by LC will mostly likely be lower for the current class of 2011 from all accounts and the Class of 2012 will most likely see a tighter selection scene.
It is hard to advise any parent on what and which, but in general, teenagers are starting to develop awareness of themselves and their abilities. It could be counterproductive to 'force' them to undertake a 'challenge' - just for the image on their transcript.
Quite frankly, I have found that the ability to control outcomes diminishes as the child gets older. By the Sophomore/Junior years, if a child 'feels' pressured and becomes reluctant to expand the efffort, well that when the A's and B's become C's and D's. 
Last edited on Fri May 11th, 2007 09:20 am by jocelynDAD
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Chedva
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 11:45 am |
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Leftcoast is right about high schools differing in how you can drop a class. At d's high school, during the first 2 weeks you can drop a class. But very often, you can't add a class. It often depends on the scheduling. If honors are full, as they often are at her school, you're out of luck. Additionally, AP isn't always offered at the same time as honors, so to drop down into honors, you'd have to rearrange your entire schedule. That often meant losing other APs in the process. So most kids kept the schedule they started with, or dropped a class only to be unable to replace it. You know how flexible your d's high school is, and whether dropping down is even feasible.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 05:46 pm |
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zippy wrote: My question is, if it is looking like she might get B's or C's next year in honors math (read long thread on other forum about how one bad math grade may have tanked a girl's chances at more selective colleges and got very nervous) how damaging would it be to switch into regular pre-calc and trig? Now, I realize that the situation of the girl on the other forum probably had more to it than just one C in math,
If it is the thread I am thinking of, there were definitely other mitigating factors besides the C.
It's important to keep in mind when reading internet boards that EVERY applicant is unique, the applicant pools for individual schools are also different each year, and what happens to one person isn't a reliable indicator of how it may go for another - there are just too many variables involved.
That said, Leftcoast's advice is spot on in my view. Lay the possibilities out for your daughter, and then let her decide. Do, however, look at the big picture: will she have honors/AP courses in other subject areas? How is she likely to do on standardized tests? What other strengths and weaknesses might she have on her application? My rule of thumb is that one or possibly even two weaknesses won't automatically sink the ship, but more than that may mean some schools won't be possible. That's ok, though, as there are THOUSANDS of schools to choose from.
But, ultimately, we can't control every single possibility! Most students and parents will have to work with what they have in the end, and hope for the best.
Finally, keep in mind that college lists and intended majors can and do change a lot between sophomore and senior years -- it's probably impossible to say where your daughter will end up applying, or what her chances will be until you have junior year grades and test scores in hand. And, of course, EVERY college list will need to have some solid match and safety schools in the mix, so you still have a ways to go in terms of finalizing the list because, frankly, none of the schools you named are "safe bets" for anyone.
Last edited on Fri May 11th, 2007 08:46 pm by CarolynLawrence
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zippy
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 10:48 pm |
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| In is simplest form, I guess my question is, if the grades and scores are there and the EC's are up to snuff, how much does not having that check by "took the hardest schedule possible" impact an admission decision. D is mapped out to have honors or AP's in every class she is opting to take (standard pre-college curriculum) with exception of chem and American Gov't. Would dropping the honors designation in trig and pre-calc keep her from consideration at the aforementioned colleges?
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 11:58 pm |
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Zippy:
The colleges that you have listed are all very competitive and highly selective with the possible exception of American University.
The mantra "hardest possible academic schedule" is IMO a cop-out phrase used by AdComs to excuse the non-selection of a candidate.
Naturally, A's in bunches of AP and Honors classes is impressive. However the issue that you raised is two-fold, one concerned what the colleges might think. The other and vastly more important IMO is what fits your D needs and abilities!
In that best of all worlds, where the child is talented, motivated, and eager for challenges (even in the midst of all the worries of going from 13 to 17), taking the "hardest etc" is fine and will be a plus at college application time.
Most children do not possess the talent, motivation and eagerness for challenges in the academic arena during their teen age years. Some have one or two but not all three (usually it is the teenage boys in this category, but enough girls as well).
IMO, it is far better to allow the child to develop the motivation and acceptance of challenges at the pace best suited for each. It is easy to get tooth paste from a container, rather difficult to put the tooth paste into the container.
As Carolyn and others have noted, there are plenty of very excellent colleges in this land of ours. The few most selective colleges are not the entire game.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 12:56 am |
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Would dropping the honors designation in trig and pre-calc keep her from consideration at the aforementioned colleges?
It would not "keep her from consideration" but it makes her less competitive, when compared with other applicants who have the right grades and test scores and EC's that are merely "up to snuff". I said "merely" because among the most competitive colleges, what sets the admitted kids apart is usually some sort of accomplishments or activities, in or out of school that are more than "up to snuff". So doing all the right things doesn't get any kid into those colleges, it merely helps keep them in the running.
I'd recommend a new book, called "Winning the College Admissions Game" by Peter Van Buskirk. I think Van Buskirk does a really good job of explaining how college admissions works to further the agenda of the college - not the student -- and how and why the degree of selectivity of a college is not highly relevant to whether the college is the best choice for the student. We attended Van Buskirk's workshops when my daughter was applying to colleges -- she had a long conversation with Peter after his workshop and I'm pretty sure she took his advice to heart. She was already a senior and her course selection, grades and test scores were already established. Peter emphasized that it was very important that she explain the weaknesses in her record -- WHY she didn't take those math courses, WHY she made the choices that she did -- and not simply ignore them or wish they would go away.
So she told the colleges, "My desire for challenge fueled my decision to seek immersion experiences in Russian language and culture". Then she described her study abroad experiences, and wrote that she chose to spend a semester attending high school in a rural Russian village "exactly for the purpose of experiencing something that would be a struggle." She commented that her "unconventional" course schedule required her to "forego some AP classes as well as advanced math simply because they could not be fit into my schedule upon my return." She then summed up, saying that she was happy with her choice because her experiences were so enriching -- and of course there was also a separate essay about living in Russia following the "experience that changed your life / challeng you have overcome" theme that is a standard essay prompt.
But the bottom line is... this choice did NOT help make my d. more competitive for Chicago or Barnard, it just happened that she did a good job of pitching her strengths and apparently these schools were satisfied when she acknowledged and explained her weaknesses. It ended up working for her. But it only "worked" because she never was making those choices with an eye to getting into those colleges in the first place.
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