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outwest
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 03:44 am |
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My daughter is thinking about classes for senior year. I will list her current classes first. I want to give the choices she is thinking about for senior year and see what you think.
Current Junior year classes:
German 3
Senior English British (year ahead)
Photography
AP Calculus AB
AP Environmental Science
AP US History
Possible Senior Year classes:
AP German (this is for sure-loves German)
AP Literature (this is for sure, also:counselor made her sign an agreement)
AP Statistics (this is for sure, also-nothing left unless she goes off campus, likes math)
theses are the others where she is trying to decide-
science (has had biology, environmental and chemistry):
a) regular high school physics (lots of fun projects)
b) AP Physics (at the HS)
c) Engineering Physics (labs at the nearby colleges, lecture at the HS, HS teacher)
Government/economics combos (both required at least one semester):
a)AP Government/AP Economics (both year long, so would have no electives)
b)regular Government/regular economics(each one semester), this would leave a slot for a year long elective.
c) either one or the other AP and the other regular(one semester for an elective).
elective choices (each a year, but could take one semester only):
a) Psychology
b) Sociology
I want her to take what she wants, of course, but here is her situation:
top 5% GPA (4.1 weighted) in tough public HS in college town where solid APs are common for Junior and Senior year.
NMS commended (pretty sure 213 index)
SAT 2050 in October of Junior year-retaking in June
Won a National Award for German fluency and got a medal and interviewed for a trip-wasn't chosen for the trip (1,140 took test, 13 interviewed, one chosen)
strong EC's all having to do with hiking and environment and Girl Scout leadership.
Should have good recommendations.
She has been kicking herself for choosing Calculus AB instead of BC because it is easy for her and BC looks so much better. She also chose to stay on campus for English next year by not taking the AP lit this year and taking Senior English instead (too shy to go to college as a senior).
She is interested in science and math in college (particularly Environmental), but also loves languages. Is also thinking Foreign Service like her Aunt would be very cool. She really wants to go to a small liberal arts school and not a UC, but reality is she will need merit aid in order to go to LAC.
The plan:
Planning to apply to very good colleges, but not top tier schools that don't offer merit, and the UC's.
Questions:
Do you think the three AP's she is going to take are good enough (would have 7 total for HS)?
What would you recommend for the other classes?
What level colleges SHOULD she be looking at?
Last edited on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 03:50 am by outwest
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mackinaw
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 12:58 pm |
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OW, I can't quite sort this out but she has to take Gov, right? So why not AP Gov? Is Econ required core in Cali? And she's interested in science, and in applying to a fairly competitive school, why not AP Physics? Given her goal, taking regular physics would not be as convincing, IMHO. The engineering physics as nearby college might be interesting but what's the advantage over the regular AP physics without having to go off campus?
If she takes all AP's she won't be having a lot of fun senior year, though (but who needs fun?), and so maybe she shouldn't go crazy with the AP Econ, too.
My hunch is that she should have 4-5 AP courses, though: German, Lit, Stats, Physics, and Gov. And then she can breathe a bit with regular econ, soc or psych.
Last edited on Wed Apr 11th, 2007 02:43 am by mackinaw
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 06:39 pm |
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Outwest, I agree with Mackinaw -- senior year is very stressful, so you want to leave her some breathing room for applications and to have some fun/relaxation.
A few questions: Is there a senior year math option available? What have you heard about the rigor and teachers for the AP courses? How comfortable does she feel about taking Physics? How heavy is her EC schedule for next year?
My first thought would be to take the 3 AP courses already planned, and then take a 4th year of math, if available, if she is planning on applying as a math/science major. The top UC's, in particular, like to see that 4th year of math. (If it's not available, that's a different story). Then, I would opt for the AP Physics class over the engineering physics class -- AP Physics is not something that needs to be translated for colleges. Finally, I would opt for AP Government, and then regular economics. That might allow her to fit in one of her electives. However, high school sociology and psychology courses are typically pretty useless, and nothing like their college counterparts.
However, I wouldn't sweat the decision too much. An additional AP or two is not likely to make a huge difference in her chances.
Carolyn
Last edited on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 06:45 pm by CarolynLawrence
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mominva
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 06:48 pm |
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Can she do BC calc after taking the AB? At some schools they are sequential courses.
I agree with the AP physics for the math/science potential major. Does she have a choice of Physics B or Physics C?
With the AP German and Literature classes she'll be well rounded. I'd let her choose the Gov./Economics and electives based upon where she thinks she might have more fun- a particular teacher, or with a friend who she has never had a class with, etc.
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MaizeBlue
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 08:55 pm |
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My D was in essentially the same position as yours for her senior year a few years ago with similar background in coursework (7 AP's total). She, too, was a strong math/science kid and is currently a chemistry major at an LAC known for turning out grads who go on to science PhD's. I am an AP teacher at a competitive HS who strenuously believes that kids need academic balance in their schedule, but I don't often see it. And balance is defined differently for every kid - One may be all some can handle, and I've seen a few with 7 AP's/year and a couple graduate with close to 20 total. For my D, she had taken 4 AP's prior to senior year, including AP Calc AB and AP Chem. Her senior year schedule was AP Stats, AP English (Lit, I think - she had AP Lang as a jr.), and AP Computer Science. She also was enrolled in the next 2 courses of the Calculus sequence which were offered at the HS (yr. long), taught by a college prof, and students purchase college credit through the local community college. So, in a way, this was akin to a 4th AP class, just no exam. She took *regular* government and *regular* physics. The big debate was should she load up with AP Physics C or take regular Physics. She choose the latter, and was generally bored, but is very glad she did - she liked the break. In the long run, it worked out - she took calculus-based physics in college as a requirement for her major and did just fine. And since her selective LAC admitted her in the first place, I don't think they found it to be an issue.
It shouldn't be about what looks good to the college - it should be about the balance in your D's day/week/month/year and what she's interested in. I see that she has outdoor EC's - I'm sure she wouldn't want to sacrifice her time there for more AP classes. Psychology goes very well with AP Stats, and both of the non-AP Physics courses you describe sound great!
Last edited on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 09:02 pm by MaizeBlue
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 10:23 pm |
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MaizeBlue wrote: It shouldn't be about what looks good to the college - it should be about the balance in your D's day/week/month/year and what she's interested in.
Maize, as always, your insight is wonderful. For this quote alone, I am naming you  for the day. Thank you.
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 10:45 pm |
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Outwest, it really depends on the "hardness" of your HS curriculum. For example, AP Govt and AP Econ are typically one-semester courses in HS; they are a couple of the easiest AP's, and they don't have to be difficult for students to score a 4/5. But, if your HS requires 10-page term papers for Govt, for example, then the class becomes real work. At our HS, both classes made-to-order for senior-itis -- easy curve.
I'm not a big fan of Psych os Soc in HS bcos I don't believe that the average HS teacher has the background to bring those rich subjects to life. But, to be fair, many high school teachers butcher econ, as well, and end up teaching to the test. For example, just imagine taking econ at from the absolute best teacher in your HS or just any ol' teacher at UChicago or a UC. If D is thinking of math-science, than exposure to physics is well worth it in HS -- makes that first college physics class much easier. [Full disclosure: IMO, HS is for covering all core academic basics (so every college major is possible), and college is for delving further into chosen material.]
mack: 'civics' & some type of econ is required for graduation in Calif.
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MaizeBlue
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Posted: Wed Apr 11th, 2007 06:20 pm |
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Ooh, thanks Carolyn - I needed a crown today. 
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outwest
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 06:03 pm |
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Thanks everybody! Really great thoughts and you mimiced my feelings about Psych and Soc in HS, too. Economics is required in California in HS. I also agree in the balance of schedule. We just returned from a PNW tour of 4 colleges and drive-bys of two others. It was exhausting, but informative. I will talk to DD about the AP Physics and see what she thinks. She needs to decide soon.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 06:22 pm |
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| Looking forward to hearing how your college visit trip went, Outwest. In particular, if you visited UPS, I'd love to hear what you and your daughter thought. It's a school I think my son might like, but we haven't visited.
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outwest
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 04:52 pm |
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Carol, what did you think about UPS review?
Her final selections:
AP German 4
AP Literature
AP Government (1 semester after all)/Regular Economics (1 semester-AP is a year)
AP Statistics
Physics of some kind (depends on counselor and schedule conflicts)
elective (don't know which she'll be given):
first choice:Sociology/Psychology (1 semester each)
second choice: Humanities/Philosophy (1 semester each)
third choice: geography (year long)
will be taking her last semester of PE this summer.
Personally, I think this is plenty challenging enough!!
She will end up with:
4 years of science
4 years of language
4 years of english
4 years of math
4 years of history/social sciences
3 years of fine arts
8 AP's total
I don't know what we're concerned about! In looking at it, it seems to me she would look great to any college!
She is also top 10%
NMS commended level
good recs.
focused EC's all having to do with outdoors except for girl scouts
It is just that our high school is a very strong public high school in a college town and her peers often have even more challenging course loads then she does! Many go off campus to the Claremont Colleges for a few classes their senior year and she isn;t going to do that. I remember talking her out of AP World History as a Sophomre because the teacher is such a slave driver with hours of busy work a night. She ended up with the top school award in the regular history class that year so I hope that balances things.
I am excited for her college prospects and hope she is happy with her choices.
Last edited on Tue Apr 24th, 2007 05:13 pm by outwest
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 04:55 pm |
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| Sounds like a very challenging senior year schedule, Outwest. I'd say it looks fine as long as she is comfortable and can handle it.
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outwest
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 05:02 pm |
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They were her choices. I believe she can handle it. She is a bright cookie and doesn't have to study too hard for an A. My only concern is burnout and I talked to her about that. She said she prefers the AP classes because her peers are great in those classes.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 06:49 pm |
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Your daughter sounds a lot like my daughter. She never took the easy way out, even when we told her it was OK to do so. In the long run, I believe she will be better off because of that tenacity!
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dufay
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 01:03 am |
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Potential course load for my D- cyberschools (ballet, but ratcheting down), applying to Penn Young Scholars and will take French and Psych if accepted (or at Villanova if not). She will probaby be dinged by Penn, at least, for no physics (took AP Bio) and no calc. I'm letting her go with her passions- literature, history, languages. Personally, I think the Shakespeare will stay with her far longer than either physics or calc.
Intermed French
Psych
AP Stats
Intro Shakespeare (university level)-geez, 8 plays. She thinks it sounds fantastic.
European History (university level)
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Consolation
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 01:42 pm |
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On a G/T list I subscribe to, someone said that their kid was deferred ED and eventually rejected by the U of P. An admissions officer told them it was because the kid had opted for AP Stats instead of AP Calculus, despite a slew of other APs and stuff.
So the moral of the story seems to be to take Calculus if it is available. And while we were visiting some Ivies in February, one or more admissions officers said, "Take Physics."
For what it's worth.
Ultimately, it may suggest that--no matter how bright--a math/science/engineering type who simply cannot bear to take a high-level history or English course fits at an engineering/science school, not at an elite LAC or an Ivy. And that a humanities type who simply cannot bear to take a high-level math or science course--no matter how bright--doesn't fit at those schools either.
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outwest
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 04:27 pm |
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Yes, that's true consolation.
As far as calculus in high school: Many kids cannot take calculus in high school. In our district the math tract you are on is determined by testing at the end of sixth grade. And that special testing is only offered if the kids grades and standardized test scores are at a certain level in math AND testing is optional. Some parents do not want their kids to take that grueling test. We are talking an 11 or 12 year old here. You can't tell me that math talent is fully realized at that young age. A lot of students don't develop that side of their brains until much later.
In my DD #3's case we did allow her to take the test and at the time thought of it as good experience. We did not think she would actually pass it. Then to everyones surprise (6th grade teacher included) she passed into the highest level and took Algebra 1 in 7th grade. I took Algebra 1 in 10th grade after taking geometry in 9th. She took Algebra 2 in 8th grade. I remember struggling with Algebra 2 as a Junior in high school. She is the only one of my three kids who was on this tract.
Anyway, she took Calculus AB as a Junior, so AP Statistics is all that's left. Our school doesn't allow you to take BC after taking AB. Maybe AB was a mistake in her case, but none of us could fathom BC in high school. The kids who take BC all want to be engineers or some such. She likes to cook and hike. She doesn't want to be an engineer. She likes foreign languages. She is smart, yah, but AB seemed right for her. Forget the college admissions issues. I took Calculus in college as a Sophomore and I'm really good in math.
If colleges see the AB as a negative, well, then, so be it. I don't think of it as a negative at all. I think of it as she is two years ahead in math. Most colleges will require she retake Calulus anyway. Even the BC kids usually have to retake Calculus. What is the rush these days, anyway? I have very mixed feelings about all of this.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 04:42 pm |
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outwest wrote: Yes, that's true consolation.
As far as calculus in high school: Many kids cannot take calculus in high school. In our district the math tract you are on is determined by testing at the end of sixth grade.
This is true at other high schools as well. At our private high school, the entrance exam math score determines the math track you'll be put on. The "accelerated" track starts with geometry and automatically leads to Calculus, the "college prep" track leads to Pre-Calculus in 12th grade. You can "jump tracks" if you do well enough in Algebra I or Geometry in 9th or 10th grade, but it is difficult to do if you are a non-math type, as my daughter was.
By the way, I know at least two people who were admitted to the U of Penn without taking Calculus. So, I think we need to be careful about drawing conclusions.
The best way of looking at it is: (1) what is the student capable of (2) what type of schools is the student likely to be aiming for (3) what are the high school offerings. Every student doesn't have to take Calculus. But, those aiming for highly selective schools probably should if at all possible -- not to guarantee their acceptance, but just to boost their chances.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 11:35 pm |
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Outwest, for where your daughter is aiming -- ( The plan:
Planning to apply to very good colleges, but not top tier schools that don't offer merit, and the UC's.) -- your daughter is way ahead of the game no matter what courses she takes next year. She is going to be at the top of the index for the UC's in any case -- and I know that UC Berkeley caps the number of AP's it will count toward a weighted GPA. She is also looking great for the merit-offering, non top tier schools.
You are being given the sort of advice that is suitable for that other board -- not for real life and your daughter's mental health. Keep in mind that for UC admissions, your daughter is competing against all the kids from ordinary California public high schools that don't offer nearly as many APs. I mean... around here... AP Calc? No way -- neither of my kids had that and both were admitted at Berkeley.
Actually, I'd focus on the German in terms of a tip factor for applications. I know that Russian is what pulled my daughter into elite admissions -- my d. never did any math beyond Algebra II, and had test scores at the bottom of the range for the schools that admitted her -- but if your d. plans to continue her language studies in colleges, I think that it is something that sets her apart, especially if she aims for colleges with strong departments in her language. There's nothing more that your daughter has to do, except that she should take the SAT II in German.
Other than that, chill out. I am soooo glad that my d. had a nice, relaxed high school life without somehow succombing to the idea that high school was some sort of extreme competition to acquire the most APs.
If you had begun this thread with the words, "My daughter is hoping to get into MIT".... I'd have a different take. Because you are getting some great advice for MIT admissions.
As far as the LACs: look at Lewis & Clark -- it may be a good fit for your daughter with her interests and also they can be good with merit aid.
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outwest
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 11:42 pm |
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My DD #1 was on the middle tract. She did Precalculus in 12th. She had SAT of 1480 with a 700 in math and 780 in English (old test). She was admitted to every college she applied to including Berkeley and UCLA (no money given). Granted, she didn't apply to top tier LAC's except for Sarah Lawrence and Oberlin. Oberlin wait listed her, SL admitted her, but cost too much. The others all gave her merit money with two giving full rides (both tier two colleges). She had no physics, either.
My DD#2 was on the regular tract. She just took Algebra 2 in Junior year and was done. She was admitted to every college she applied to. Of course, her colleges were totally different levels and she had different talents. She did have Physics her senior year.
You don't have to take Calculus in high school unless you are applying to the top 20 LACs and can afford them with the need aid only they give.
#3 will have both Physics and Calculus. We will see what happens.
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