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Chedva
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 12:27 pm |
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| Deja, in my opinion (and to paraphrase my D) - any college that would reject a kid like that, with his schedule, because he did not take calculus is a school he probably wouldn't want to go to anyway. Don't make him crazy by forcing it on him, with a lousy teacher, no less.
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outwest
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 02:55 pm |
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#1 never took calculus and got into eight of the nine colleges she applied to. The ninth was a waitlist. I wouldn't worry about it, especially if he is interested in a great books type experience. My #2 got into every college she applied to without it. My #3 is the only one of the three to take it. Honestly, for what he is interested in I don't think it will matter.
I am not sure how your state universities look at it, though, or how competitive they actually are. He would hate to have that be a make or break there. I think you should heck their admissions statistics and see what percentage of students had calculus. The admissions offices should be able to tell you that.
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Consolation
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 03:13 pm |
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Deja wrote:
So just how important is Calculus in high school for a kid like this?
All I can tell you is that the message to take Calculus and Physics--even if not planning a science/math/engineering major--came from Ivies. If your son is not applying to Ivies--or to engineering/science schools and programs--I would assume that it is likely much less important, especially for a student who has an outstanding concentration and record of accomplishment in another area.
On the other hand, my husband--an econ major, MBA in finance and CFA-- tells me that the more sophisticated levels of economics involving econometric models uses calculus. So if he's heading in the direction of PPE, he may eventually have to take it, depending on what level of economics he wishes/needs to study.
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riviera
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 03:34 pm |
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We just had a Stanford admission presentation at my son's high school last night. For kids interested in applying to Stanford, the admission officer said that for him, the applicant's HS transcript was the most important piece of the application, that he wanted to see 4 years of math including calculus, 4 years of the same foreign language and the 3 main science subjects: biology, chemistry and physics. He also warned students not to be too attached to a single dream college and talked about his own rejection from his dream school when he was a senior.
BTW, Stanford is moving to the common app next year and there will be new deadlines for Single-Choice EA and Regular Decision.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 06:53 pm |
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| Thanks Riviera -- I didn't know that Stanford will be using the CA next year. Seems that eventually *most* colleges will.
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Deja
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 01:33 pm |
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Thanks for the ideas, everyone.
If he wasn't going to participate in a wonderful two-week program on state politics and government at our flagship state university this summer, he probably would have taken Calculus at our community college.
He realizes that his interest in economics as a possible eventual major/minor could very well necessitate having to take Calculus at some point. His current thinking is that he IS going to take CalculusAB next year.
We all know how much the college admissions competition has heated up in recent years. What might have been acceptable for selective colleges five years ago may not be now. Many kids go on to college without having taken Calculus, of course, but I am concerned how colleges would look at a student who appears to have stepped off the math track after sophomore year. It would be pretty obvious to adcoms that the student could have taken Calculus, but decided otherwise.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 12:33 am |
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Here is my feeling: taking calculus is a plus for any college application. However, expect for prospective math, engineering or physics majors, no one gets rejected because they didn't take calculus. College ad coms don't go through apps looking for trivial reasons to reject -- if they did, my daughter would never have gotten accepted to colleges like Barnard, Chicago & NYU. When admissions are highly selective, they pick out the applications they like -- the ones that strike them as special in some way - and unless there is some really huge problem, the specialness is what gets the student in. Of course they are only looking among apps that they have pre-screened to make sure it fits their minimum requirements.
The reason it is harmful not to take calculus, at a school that offers it, for student interested in studying math or hard sciences -- is that it is inconsistent with the role the student is casting for himself: if student X really is planning to be an astrophysicist, it makes no sense that he would be taking AP stats instead of calculus.
However, the ad com isn't going to be disturbed about the prospective philosophy major who is missing calculus. In a sense it's like casting a play: the ad com wants students who look and feel good for the roles they are auditioning for.
Sometimes different members of the ad com disagree -- one really likes a student, another isn't impressed. In that case, there will be a discussion and the dissenter might point out a flaw in the transcript or record, hoping to convince whoever has the tie-breaking vote that the student isn't worth fighting for. So weak spots don't help ... but the real "flaw" is that the student's application presentation wasn't "special" enough to win everyone over.
In the end, after the student gets waitlisted or rejected, surprised guidance counselor's or parents going through the process the first time might call up the college and ask why the student didn't get in. It is at that point that the recipient of the call (who most likely is NOT the person who actually made the decision), will glance through the file, find a weak spot, and tell the caller that the "reason" the student didn't make it was their SAT score being too low, or not having calculus, or their class rank not being high enough, etc. They can't possibly know this because ad coms don't specify reasons when they write "deny" or "waitlist" on the file, though in some cases there might be some sort of numerical score or academic index written down that reflects the way the application was weighted on an initial read. The person who talks to the caller will never say, "the essay was really cliche", or "a teacher wrote a bad recommendation", or "the interviewer didn't like the kid" -- even though those are often the reason an application never makes it past the initial screen -- but those are reasons that are going to get the caller upset. The point is -- it is April 2, the phone is ringing off the wall with disappointed and often angry callers, and the goal of the person taking the call is to get the caller off the phone as quickly as possible, supplying an objective "reason" that cannot be argued with and isn't likely to provoke further anger.
Anyway, that's what I think -- so I would definitely take those reports that so-and-so's kid didn't get in because he didn't have calculus with a grain of salt.
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mathmom
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 02:27 pm |
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Deja wrote: Jay Mathews didn't quite believe me, and said he'd never heard of that happening, but sometimes I don't think he's quite as knowledgeable as he thinks he is!
<snip>
So just how important is Calculus in high school for a kid like this?
Jay Mathews is a dope. Our middle school high school courses are also on our transcripts and get figured into the GPA. However I do imagine that just as many colleges give you a pass on freshmen year grades if there is an improving trend, I'd imagine much the same happens with those middle school grades. It can still kill your ranking - not a thing you can do about it.
As for the calculus question. That's trickier. I don't think he HAS to take it, but it's risky. I think AP Stats is a more useful alternative than AP Comp Sci, for a possible economist/gov type, but I think there's a good chance he'll end up wanting/having to take calculus in college. Just as an example, Harvard's Microeconomics course has first semester calculus as a prerequisite.
Last edited on Mon May 14th, 2007 02:30 pm by mathmom
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outwest
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 05:50 pm |
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My DD was told by her counselor that a person takes AP Stat after taking AP Calc. At least, that's what happens at her HS.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 01:39 am |
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How is not taking calculus in any way "risky" for Deja's incredibly accomplished debater son, who obviously will be seen by colleges as a likely poli sci major?
Colleges evaluate the academic records of applicants in context -- they are looking at the whole picture. If Deja's son was more like mine was -- a really good student with few ECs or outside activities -- then I'd think that taking calculus would be an important addition -- if all the kid has to present is their academic record, then the academic record had better be as strong as possible. But everything about Deja's son's essay screams politics + leadership -- it is far more important for that kid to take AP US History & AP Government (if available) than to stress out over math.
By the way, there was a kid in my daughter's graduating class last year who had a profile similar to Deja's son -- I'm pretty sure he didn't take calculus. He was accepted at Harvard, Yale, Columbia & Swartmore.
What Deja's son has going for him is a clear passion and some great achievements even as a sophomore in that area -- he does not have to fit someone else's mold of what the perfect student looks like. In fact, Deja's son's weakness is his GPA, so taking a difficult course where motivation and interest is weak may not be a good idea at all -- Deja's son needs more A's. So to me, for that particular student, taking Calculus is probably more "risky" than not taking it.
(Note to Deja: even though the middle school courses are impacting your son's class rank, the colleges will probaby recalculate GPA leaving them out, and colleges like to see a rising trend in any case, so the 10th grade up is most important. But the kid I mentioned above who is is now at Harvard also was in contention for valedictorian, so overall GPA/rank are definitely considerations for the top colleges).
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Deja
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 05:19 pm |
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leftcoast, my son's grades in high school have been all As, except for math. (We have the "94-100 is an A" scale, with no pluses or minuses; he didn't try very hard to raise that 92 in math to the 94+ range which would have been an A!) But, because others either didn't have the credits from middle school or did better in them, he started a bit behind in the GPA department. So, yes, you hit the issue dead on -- does he take the harder course and get a weak grade or take something that will help that GPA? His AP courses are weighted, so if he gets As in them it should start to pull that GPA up.
I contacted the admissions office of our flagship state university. The deans of admission are on retreat today, but I was urged to call back again tomorrow, which I will do.
Thanks so much!
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outwest
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 07:08 pm |
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The UC's calculate the gpa off of the Sophomore and Junior years only. And then they only calculate the "UC approved" classes. So, if you took something off beat it won't count and PE isn't counted, either. They do give an extra point to Honors and AP classes (both weighted the same).
On my DD's transcript she has three gpa's listed: 1 straight gpa, 1 weighted gpa and 1 state college gpa. They each have their own class rank, too and my DD's class rank varies between the three. It seems very complicated, but I suppose it's not.
How does your state school do it?
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Consolation
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 08:56 pm |
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My son's schedule for senior year has taken a bizarre turn. He's signed up for:
Yearlong courses:
AP Chem
AP Physics
AP Calc BC
Humanities (An unusual multidisciplinary honors course, taught by the chairs of our History and English depts, that students look forward to throughout high school.)
AP Spanish
AP French Lit (an independent study)
A semester course:
Classic Novel (from the AP thread of English courses)
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and "International Food" 
He needs an "allied art" semester credit to graduate. He was going to take AP Macroeconomics to satisfy it, but it didn't fit into his schedule. He says he thinks International Food will be fun. I'm skeptical of the wisdom of this choice, but I guess he deserves to take ONE frivolous course during the four years! I just hope that his target schools see it that way.....
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outwest
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 09:19 pm |
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I think International Foods sounds REALLY cool. It is a facinating subject, actually. In the US we think we know all about the foods from other countries, but we honestly don't. When we went to Warsaw and Krakow, Poland a basic food was soup and pickle soup at that! Their raviolis were stuffed with sweet items, not cheese. During the potlucks at work the Phillipinos like to bring empanadas, which always seem to have a hard boiled egg thrown in with the chicken in the pop over(!). And of course, what Korean could get along without Kim Chee? Heck, even the French eat mayonnaise with their fries, not ketchup. Living in Southern California I am used to real mexican food. When we travel we are disgusted with the 'mexican' food served elsewhere. It is so Americanized it is hardly Mexican.
I find it all terribly interesting.
I wish our HS had such a class; I hope his isn't something silly like making sphaghetti.
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mathmom
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 09:58 pm |
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LOL. We had a Polish housemate in Germany for a while. I'd forgotten how often she made soup! Generally with sausage, I think I would remember if she'd used pickles, but who knows.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 10:02 pm |
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Maybe his college plans will take a severe left-turn after he discovers his burning passion to become a chef in the International Foods course. 
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outwest
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 01:03 am |
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zupa ogorkowa
Polish Sour Pickle Soup
8 cups chicken broth
2 grated carrots
2 cups peeled and cubed potatoes
5 grated polish dill pickles
1/2 cup milk
1 egg
5 T. sour cream
salt & pepper
Combine broth, carrots, potatoes, and celery in soup pot. Cook,
covered over low heat until potatoes are tender, add pickles and
cook 15 min. mix milk and flour until smooth, and add to soup mixing
well. Bring to boil. Stirring till slightly thickened. Remove from
heat. Beat eggs with sour cream until smooth. Keep soup warm, but
not boiling. Add some of the soup to sour cream, then gradually
add back to pot. Keep warm, but not boiling or it will curdle. Add
salt and pepper to taste. Make approx.10 servings.
[It is really quite deliciously weird to Americans. Actually, I couldn't finish mine because it was just too different and my taste buds were, oh, so confused by sipping pickles. But, I was glad I tried it!)] Last edited on Wed May 16th, 2007 01:20 am by outwest
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Consolation
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 02:09 pm |
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CarolynLawrence wrote: Maybe his college plans will take a severe left-turn after he discovers his burning passion to become a chef in the International Foods course.
Culinary Institute of America, here he comes! 
The irony of this is that I am actually quite a cook, and I make real Indian, Chinese, Thai, Italian, Hungarian, French--you name it--food frequently. I have a business making high end chocolates and truffles and so on. But he has never shown any interest at all in cooking. Just last week I was showing him how to make a tuna melt, and he actually asked if he should put the china plate in the toaster oven during the melting the cheese phase. 
The more I think about it, the happier I am that he is taking this instead of a notoriously lame (at our school) economics course.
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Deja
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 05:50 pm |
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I talked to an admissions dean at our flagship state university today. Here's what he said:
They want to see math in junior year of high school, but it doesn't have to be Calculus if the student isn't going into something like engineering. Statistics would be fine. He understood that ds could take Calculus next year as a high school junior.
They only look at high school grades, even though they realize that my school system calculates high school credits taken in middle school into the final GPA.
I realize that he might eventually have to take Calculus if he decides on Economics as a minor. Ds realizes that, too.
I'm still not sure if AP CalcAB will be taken off his course list next year or not.
The dean was a really nice guy, and was excited that ds is going to be attending the poli sci/govt program for high schoolers this summer.
P.S. Our school system only has Honors English, and that isn't weighted extra -- only AP courses are in my son's high school.
Last edited on Wed May 16th, 2007 06:02 pm by Deja
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