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outwest
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 11:59 pm |
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Leftcoast, we cross posted.
I really am not a slave driver. 
Part of the AP push is with her peers and friends. Part of it is that nothing is left as far as science, math and english at her school. She has no choice but the AP's, community college or Claremont college classes (agreement with HS). She wants to stay at her high school next year. The school put her on this tract. We live in a college town of 35,000 with 5 undergraduate LACs and 3 graduate schools within it's borders. That is where the mindset is here. I remember in her Sophomore years her friends telling her that she really should push herself harder because she only took one AP that year.  Anyway, she doesn't have to take science or math next year at all, but she wants to.
I agree that the German thing is good. I hadn't thought that hard about it, but the kid really CAN speak German. When we had our German exchange student here in March she was just yacking away with her in German. That's when I realized if she wasn't fluent, she was pretty darned close! Her German teacher says the same.
After her visit to Lewis and Clark in March, it is officially "on the list". She loved it. So is UC San Diego and UC Santa Cruz. It's the others she will play with over the summer. Right now she has too much testing and finals to get through to think too hard about any of it. That's where I come in. LOL. I can think hard about it for her; just pass that duct tape please.
Last edited on Sun May 6th, 2007 07:50 am by outwest
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leftcoast
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 02:27 am |
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I think having a strong schedule senior year always looks good -- it's just that with the 3 for-sure APs I don't think that it matters one way or another if your d. opts for AP physics vs. ordinary physics. And since your experience mirrors mine with UC admissions, I think that you know your d. will have good choices there, especially since she likes Santa Cruz. (She'll probably be offered merit aid at UCSC -- both my kids were offered $2k merit awards there).
I think simply the fact that your d. has a strong math/science record on top of the German study & the awards gives her a big edge, without needing to have maxed out on what her school has to offer for math & science.
My d. had 2 AP's and one "honors" senior year - and that really was plenty. The colleges are looking at the whole profile; they don't want to see a kid goofing off senior year, but I think it helps rather than hurts if the overall course list gives them a sense of the student's interests or personality.
I think the problem these days is that everyone takes the "most challenging curriculum" advice too literally, to mean that the kid has to load up on APs and go for the most advanced courses their high school offers. So then, the colleges end up deluged with applications that are indistinguishable: everyone has all the same courses & has similarly chosen EC's based on what they think looks best for colleges.The elites can't take all the kids, and when the kids with the X-treme stats get rejected, it is taken as a signal that the competition needs to be ratcheted up to another level -- when the real problem is simply that there aren't enough spaces for everyone, so the ad coms at the most selective colleges end up picking based on intangibles. One kid gets in over another simply because the ad com liked her better, maybe because of something said in an essay or rec, or something that stood out when looking at the EC's.
So, in one way, the best advice might be to ... ignore the advice. Simply because the more the "advice" is heeded, the more the student starts to look the same as all the rest.
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outwest
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 03:59 am |
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Excellent advise, leftcoast, and food for thought, too. I think you're right about ignoring the advise and doing what you want. It is a balance, though, when a student wants something that they can't afford (like private college). I have to believe that things will work out for the best.
Honestly, I think UC Santa Cruz is great and I would not be one bit upset if she ended up there. It is not the hippy school it used to be. None of the UC's are. Their statistics are just as high as the privates she is looking at, after all. I just think the surroundings are awe inspiring with the deer in the quads and wooden bridges over shaded redwood ravines. The smell of pine and ocean air mixing is wonderful. I don't think spending four years of ones life surrounded by that is a bad thing for a nature lover. Besides, they have good language programs there, too.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 04:51 am |
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outwest wrote: It is a balance, though, when a student wants something that they can't afford (like private college). I have to believe that things will work out for the best.
Well, in your case -- if you are looking for merit aid, then that means that the most selective privates can't be considered anyway, since they are generally need-only (I am assuming you don't think you'll qualify for much in the way of need based aid). So then it becomes counter-productive to try to out-do the Ivy wannabes on the AP count -- your d. will be aiming for privates where her GPA & test scores put her near the top of the applicant pool, and those are the kind of schools where the ad com doesn't expect everyone to show up with 18 AP's. In fact, I think if they see a profile that is too competitive, they probably are suspicious and assume that their school is being used as a safety.
I do think that things can work out for the best -- in hindsight, my son certainly has done well for himself at Humboldt. It wasn't what he thought he wanted at age 18.... but it definitely fits a "work out for the best" description. I think that most high achieving kids have the ability to flourish in a wide range of schools and environments.
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outwest
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 07:04 am |
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She is doing what she wants. She is not looking at the top LACs. She isn't that high up there. She will be fine. I also think high achieving kids do well in many environments. She just wants to go to college, make friends, live in the dorms and take interesting classes. She wants to try for a small school and I support that. A UC or Cal State would be fine, also.
She won't have 18 AP's, she'll have 8. I am absolutely sure the colleges will know her public high school and realize that is a relatively normal AP load there for many of the kids. Not all, of course, but it isn't uncommon. In fact, I am sure they will realize that she didn't take any classes at the Claremont Colleges senior year and perhaps even wonder why not. It is hella hard to be in the top ten percent at her school. Don't you think the kids who go to timbuktu high school have much less worries about the admissions game? I feel a little sorry for the high school kids who go to the elite private high schools. I think they have an even harder time of it. Their competition niche is fierce.
Last edited on Sun May 6th, 2007 07:46 am by outwest
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HijinksAndSue
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 02:14 pm |
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I just think the surroundings are awe inspiring with the deer in the quads and wooden bridges over shaded redwood ravines. The smell of pine and ocean air mixing is wonderful
I think you should work for their admissions department .. now I want to go there! How is their music department and do they take any out-of-state kids, LOL? I could try to convince DD to apply and I could come visit. A lot.
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 02:48 pm |
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outwest wrote: She wants to try for a small school and I support that. A UC or Cal State would be fine, also. Is a UC or a Cal State a 'small school'. My impression is that they are larger and have commuter students as well as a dorm population, Sems (from a distance) that they would be very different from a small LAC?
She won't have 18 AP's, she'll have 8. I am absolutely sure the colleges will know her public high school and realize that is a relatively normal AP load there for many of the kids. Not all, of course, but it isn't uncommon. In fact, I am sure they will realize that she didn't take any classes at the Claremont Colleges senior year and perhaps even wonder why not. .
I agree that the Claremont Colleges are excellent with a very pretty setting. We live on the opposite coast, next door to Princeton University and some of our students take classes at Princeton (Math and Science), but I do question the awareness of most of the colleges to that fact.
To most Adcoms the possibility/probability of considering taking classes at a nearby college (even ones as well known as Princeton or the Claremont Colleges) would be a remote consideration.
They will evaluate based on the high school curriculum and the student's performance.
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Chedva
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 03:14 pm |
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My d ended up with 4 APs (most kids at her school only take 1 junior year). Senior year she had 3 APs, 2 honors and one standard (calculus). She did very well with merit aid in the level of school just below the Ivies - still top 100 schools. And this was in the super-competitive Northeast. She refused for a second to take all APs - she said that if a school wouldn't take her with her schedule, it wasn't the right school for her anyway.
I don't know enough about the UC or Cal State admissions system to have an opinion about them - although reading these boards, I'm learning every day! But I do think there's something to say for having a schedule that a kid believes is challenging enough but not one in which the kid will be ultra-stressed during senior year.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 05:09 pm |
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Well, knock me over with a feather, but my son told me last night that he'd like to visit UC Santa Cruz! I've always thought it would be a good back up plan for him, but he hasn't been thrilled with the idea of larger schools. Apparently, his favorite teacher is a UCSC alum and suggested that he visit, so that's good. He actually also asked about UC Berkeley. He's visited there in the past (not on an official tour), and somehow had the impression that Cal has "100,000" students. LOL! When I told him it's much smaller than that, he was surprised.
Leftcoast, I think you are right on target with your assessment of families taking the "most rigorous curriculum possible" concept to extremes. If the child wants to load up on APs in senior year, and can realistically handle it, that's one thing. But, I think it is sometimes a futile exercise to push kids to take on too much. Maybe the "possible" part should also be interpreted to mean "possible for the individual child."
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outwest
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 05:39 pm |
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Carolyn,
Be careful! He will love UC Santa Cruz.
I like it because it is broken up into six different colleges all with their own flavor and architecture. I also like it because housing is easier to get there then at most UC's and it is guaranteed for two years, not one like most of them. The other thing I like is that it is much more of an undergraduate school then any of the others. They do have graduate school there, but it just isn't as much a force on campus. There is a big difference in feel between Santa Cruz and Berkeley! It is possible to get sidetracked at Santa Cruz and I do know some kids who didn't do well there, but I also know a kid who went to Berkeley and then second semester of Freshman year just stopped going to class. He apparently lived on campus for over three months and his parents didn't know he quit going to class. What a waste of money! You have to be in good shape at Santa Cruz because it has a lot of hills. The only possible issue with it is prestige. It doesn't have any.
Last edited on Sun May 6th, 2007 08:12 pm by outwest
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dufay
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 10:28 pm |
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Much to my shock- my D is very interested in Barnard. Not only is it in a city she loves- but she is very interested in the dance opportunities. This was a girl who was going to walk away from ballet cold turkey after she realized that she was not going to be one of the very few "chosen". I am thrilled- I love to watch her dance. She is also increasingly interested in opera and art- what better place to be than NYC?
From what I have gleaned about Barnard, taking physics and calculus might not be crucial for admission, given that her interests lie in non-science fields. I am going to try to convince her to at least take calculus (non AP, if I can find it online), but I do agree with her that stats is much more useful in life (and for her prospective field, a requirement).
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leftcoast
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 01:11 am |
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Well, Dufay, you know I'm a proud Barnard mom, so I'm happy to answer any questions. I don't particularly recommend my daughter's circuitous and laid back route through high school --- somehow I think that the fact that my daughter was able to chat in Russian during her on-campus interview might have given her an edge that others might not get -- but Barnard really does like dancers, and it is the perfect place for someone who doesn't want to give up dance entirely, but does not have professional aspirations. I do highly recommend interviewing on campus if possible for Barnard -- I think Barnard makes an effort to match the interviewer's interests with the applicants if they have enough advance info to do so.
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Is a UC or a Cal State a 'small school'. My impression is that they are larger and have commuter students as well as a dorm population, Seems (from a distance) that they would be very different from a small LAC?
It depends on the school. Humboldt State -- where my son is -- definitely has a small school "feel" to it -- it is actually a mid-size university (~5000 students), but mostly residential as it is an impossible commute distance, and class sizes tend to be small. I think that overall, Humboldt probably has a smaller, more intimate feel to it than my d's college -- while Barnard is officially a "LAC", it's urban location, high rise dorms, and association with Columbia make it "feel" quite large and impersonal. So the point is, you have to move a little beyond the label.
UCSC has a college residential system that gives students more of a sense of "belonging" to whatever college they are part of. Like UCSC, Humboldt is located in an awesome setting, where Redwood forests meet the Pacific ocean, so you have beaches + forests. The Humboldt campus itself is not as pretty, but it is a very, very short walk to awesome hiking trails (as in, step off campus and you are in the forest).
A lot depends on the department. I attended a big UC -- UC Davis -- but found my "small" communties both within my choices for residence and my choice of major. I think there may have been 30-40 students in my major at most, we had to take a 1 unit seminar every quarter our senior year just to sit around with other majors and discuss what we were doing for our senior thesis, and I was on a first name basis with my advisor. I went to the very small department-only graduation celebration, and skipped the big, University-wide ceremony.
Last edited on Mon May 7th, 2007 01:14 am by leftcoast
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atlantamom
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 02:08 am |
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Question for Leftcoast...do you know whether Barnard likes singers (classical, not theatre)? Also, do you know how much they care about being in the top 10% (rather than 11%)?
As far as senior year classes go, I really do agree with all of you who say that each kid needs to find their own level and mix of senior year classes. Of course, if a kid is trying for the very top schools, there may be a very high minimum requirement.
At my kids' school, the AP classes are simply better classes because honors classes can vary so much in student makeup and teacher expectations. Our kids can't usually take more than 8 or 9 total, though, because of barriers created by the school system.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 06:21 am |
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Atlantamom, I don't know the answers to your questions. My daughter was within the top 3% of her high school class -- she was actually tied for #2 at the time her g.c. sent the rec to Barnard. Because of her weaker test scores I think the class rank was very important to her. But it might be different for someone with higher test scores or coming from a more competitive school.
I think Barnard values all the arts, especially any type of music, but I'd note that they have a fairly large dance faculty and a lot of courses offered at various levels. So Barnard is going to have some pressure to keep their dance classes full -- it doesn't mean that they have to go out recruiting dancers, but it does mean that they probably view dance as a positive.
But I think the most important tip factor for my d. was Russian -- Barnard has a combined Slavic Languages department with Columbia, and I think the Columbia/Barnard department is one of the strongest in the country -- but with ony a few exceptions, most colleges have been struggling over the past decade to maintain enrollment and interest in Russian language studies.
It was very easy for me to do research to figure out which colleges would place value on that interest/ability -- I simply looked for colleges with a strong faculty and lots of course offering, and then searched for enrollment data where available. The IPEDS COOL site provides an easy way to get a count of the number of students graduating with a particular major each year.
So I think the real key is to ask, "what does this student bring to this college?" - and then ask, "is this something the college wants or will appreciate?"
The one thing I know for sure about Barnard is that they will give every application a fair shake. My d. has a Barnard friend who had D's on her high school record, but submitted samples of her poetry and got in on the strength of her creative writing. So I don't think that any application is disregarded because of one or two areas of relative weakness.
On the other hand, the place is full of some really talented and interesting young women. So I do think that it is important for all applicants to make sure that their personalities, their interests, and any areas of special strength or talent really shine through.
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dufay
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 11:20 am |
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leftcoast- My D is very "into" French- culture, politics etc. She studied a semester of Russian, but doing it by correspondence proved daunting. I think it's considered the #3 most difficult language (after Chinese and Arabic). I think she was interested in knowing what some of her (Russian) teachers were saying! I really would like her to continue, but not sure there will be time as she is planning a double major in Psych and French.
We are planning a visit in June- the day after we see ABT's "Sleeping Beauty" and she is trying to schedule an interview then too. I'm a little nervous about scheduing this as her first interview as a lot may ride on it.
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atlantamom
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 11:57 am |
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| Thanks, Leftcoast, for the response. Useful, actually. My d is interested in Barnard but views it as a longshot. We have not visited yet, but will in the early fall. We have visited Columbia with her brother. Her interest developed recently as the result of conversations with the a sophomore there who is the sister of one of her best friends. If she decides that she really does want to go there, we'll do what we can to make her shine through to them.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 10:03 pm |
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Dufay, Barnard interviews are very conversational -- everyone I know feels very positively about them. My d. had spent a week interviewing at other campuses (American, GWU, Goucher) -- and so her Friday interview at Barnard was the 4th interview in one week -- but she really felt that it was the first really great interview, where the interviewer truly was interested in what she had to say. But I've heard similar comments from other students, so I think that Barnard must simply train their interviewers to try to find common ground with the student and get a conversation going about something that is interesting to the student.
Have your daughter bring a resume that includes a list of her EC's and interests & things she has done. She can give that to the interviewer and if your daughter is at all shy, that will give the interviewer a starting point.
I think interest in pursuing ANY language study is a positive with Barnard.
However, a warning: psych classes at Barnard tend to fill up, so there is a lottery for getting into the psych labs, which of course are required for psych majors. My d. had no problem getting into the lecture-only section of an advanced psych class as a freshman, but things could be tight for a major -- so it is definitely something to ask about.
Also, I saw your post on the other board about "chances". (I hate "chances" posts... like someone on an internet board is supposed to know!). That being said, your d. has a very, very strong Barnard-type profile --in addition to the dance background, Barnard seems to really like students with some sort of international living experience. (I get these ideas from the profiles of admitted students on myspace, etc.) If your d. decides she really loves Barnard and finances are not a major concern, I think she woud very likely get in ED.
A warning: with her ballet training, your d. is going to find that only the very top level ballet classes, level VI, are going to meet her needs; level V will be o.k. for her, if she feels like relaxing -- anything below that is going to seem too easy, unless your d. really enjoys barre work. There just aren't that many classes, and a lot of the classes are in the morning -- maybe not a problem for your d., but my d. is used to taking dance class in the afternoons & evenings. Most serious students also take classes at Steps or the NY Dance Center -- which are great but are an added expense to factor in.
The ballet performance opportunities at Barnard are almost non-existent - Barnard students have a good opportunity to work with professional choreographers, but they are all focused on modern; there are also opportunities to dance with the student group, Orchesis, which is quite popular and way, way below my daughter's standards in terms of technique. (You can see pictures at http://www.columbia.edu/cu/orchesis/photos.html but I made a point of NOT showing those to my d. before she applied to Barnard, because I knew that they would cause her to run away screaming in agony.)
I don't want to make things sound too bad -- my d. took a level V ballet variations class during fall semester and really enjoyed it - plus got an A+, which was the first grade that was reported, so for a very brief time my daughter's Barnard GPA was a 4.3. (D. insists that the grade was based strictly on attendance, though my guess is that attitude and enthusiasm for the course also must have counted for a lot).
On the other hand, the ballet WATCHING opportunities at Barnard are heavenly -- deeply discounted tickets regularly available for ABT, NYC ballet, etc. My d. went with her roommate to an Alvin Ailey performance with a pas de deux that left them both in tears because it was so beautiful -- she still hasn't stopped talking abou it.
Last edited on Mon May 7th, 2007 10:36 pm by leftcoast
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mom61
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 12:52 am |
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What I find amazing is that there are Ca public schools that allow a senior to take such a full load. At our high school they are only allowed a full load freshman year. After that they are allowed 6 of 8 blocks. You can qualify for an additional class if you do a team sport. You can sometimes find the extra class if what you want to take isn't full.
Very few kids take AP Calc AB.(I would guess this year it was about 60 kids out of 600) They sometimes offer BC second semester before school if he can get enough interest. (with block it is a full yr in one term). The GATE track kids who aren't into science or math take AP Stats. Most of the rest either don't take math senior year or take pre-calculus. I know this is changing each year as the jr highs are beginning to offer Alg 1 to more kids in 7th grade. No AP's are offered to 10th graders, in junior yr you can take AP US history and maybe a language if you started in junior high. A few will take AP Chem after honors chem. Senior year we don't even have that many take AP English since they offer a GATE level english 12 as well. There are a few kids who will end up with 6 or 7 AP's but that is not the norm.
Carolyn- don't write off Berkeley. I can count at least 6 Berkeley bound seniors who were set on small liberal arts colleges. Turning down Reed, Pomona, Harvey Mudd and Harvard. I think for so many Ca students it comes down to weighing the costs.
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dufay
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 11:22 am |
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| leftcoast- I appreciate all the info. My D was a bit turned off about the whole lottery business. Also, do you know about signing up for classes- is it done on line or do students have to stand "in line"?
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Deja
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 12:21 pm |
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Consolation wrote: On a G/T list I subscribe to, someone said that their kid was deferred ED and eventually rejected by the U of P. An admissions officer told them it was because the kid had opted for AP Stats instead of AP Calculus, despite a slew of other APs and stuff.
So the moral of the story seems to be to take Calculus if it is available.
We're discussing this issue right now with my high school sophomore. He is two years accelerated in math (taking precalculus right now as a sophomore). He doesn't like math. Except for Geometry (which he aced), he's a solid B student in math (doesn't work that hard, but refuses to work harder). He is a liberal artsie at heart; will probably major in something along the lines of politics/government/economics. He is intrigued by the Oxford-inspired major of PPE (Politics, Philosophy and Economics).
This year he took his first AP course (AP Government), and absolutely LOVED it. He was intrigued by the economics unit, and so next year will be doing an independent study in economics, since our high schools don't offer economics (with the AP Govt teacher as his mentor). If it goes as planned, he will be taking the AP Micro and Macroeconomics tests next May.
This summer he will be attending a program at our flagship state university for high schoolers interested in state politics and government. Next summer he would like to take the high school program at Thomas Aquinas College in CA about Great Books (he'd love to go to a Great Books college). He is my deep thinker.
Next year's schedule also includes Spanish 4, Courtroom Drama, Legal Oratory and Debate/Legal Ethics, AP English Composition, AP Biology and AP US History. He attends a school-within-a-school focused on legal studies. Because he is out-of-zone, he needs to get up every morning at 5:15 a.m. to catch his bus at 6 a.m. The school day starts at 7:25 a.m. and ends at 2 p.m. He has no free time in school; doesn't even have a lunch period (brings a lunch and eats in class). That is his choice, though, so that he can take 8 classes each year.
He is involved in Scholastic Bowl (will be captain next year), acting (was a lead in the only school play he tried out for this year), Mock Trial/Model Judiciary and Forensics. His absolute favorite activity is Lincoln Douglas Debate, and last month won the State Championship (big surprise -- big thrill!).
And then there is Calculus. He doesn't want to take it; his dad (the engineer) is telling him that he's taking the easy way out if he doesn't. I don't think he will have the time to do well in it. And it would take time. I'm also unhappy because I learned that the calc teachers at his high school aren't that good (his older brother went to a different high school). He would take AB, and that teacher is the weaker of the two (not so good) teachers.
He could take AP Computer Science next year, or AP Stats.
Despite his double legacy status at Cornell, he won't be applying there. His advantage would be to apply ED, and we will need to shop finaid packages so ED is out. Besides, he doesn't want to go to college in upstate NY. I doubt he'll be applying at any Ivies.
He hasn't taken the SAT yet (did take the old SAT as an 8th grader 2 years ago), but from his PSAT scores I predict his verbal will eventually be in the high 700s. He won't score that highly in math. He has to bring his GPA up, though -- he didn't take school that seriously in middle school, and his high school credit grades from those years (5.5 credits worth) are mostly Bs. And, yes, they are counted in the cumulative high school GPA, and yes, they are listed on his transcript. Jay Mathews didn't quite believe me, and said he'd never heard of that happening, but sometimes I don't think he's quite as knowledgeable as he thinks he is!
We've committed to paying the cost of attending one of our in-state schools, and if he wants somewhere else, he has to earn merit money. We have outstanding state universities, and his dad and I would be very happy if he were to attend one of them. It's getting harder and harder to be admitted to our top two state universities, though, and I could see him fitting in very well at either of them. His year (2009) will supposedly the hump in college applications, and only after that year will the college application numbers start to go down.
So just how important is Calculus in high school for a kid like this?
Last edited on Thu May 10th, 2007 12:39 pm by Deja
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