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WestrnMom
Super Moderator
| Joined: | Fri May 26th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 02:08 am |
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I just realized their new information is available. Has anyone subscribed? Is it worth it?
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alanarch
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 02:28 am |
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Just to set the record straight, it is September.
I have subscribed. I can't really tell you if it is worth it. I will let others chime in.
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leftcoast
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 08:19 am |
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It is definitely worth it, simply for the ease in accessing basic information. I think most of the information is also available for free elsewhere, such on the Princeton Review site -- but I find that site more cumbersome to use.
One thing I like about US News is that when you are subscribed you can click on any field in the ranking lists and get everything reordered in terms for whatever criteria you want. So, if you want to know which colleges have the best faculty/student ratio or highest percentage of small classes -- it's a click of the button. Which colllege have the highest graduation rates? another click.
US News also has excellent info compiled on lesser known regional colleges, as long as you know where to look.
I mean, I wouldn't say it is the most amazing site in the world, but for $15 for a year's access, it is more than worth it.
I'd note that they also have specific info as to what each school offers for LD students in terms of programs & accommodations.
(I'm trying to resist the temptation of springing another $15 for another year's subscription, which I obviously don't need with both kids already in college. But it is hard to break the habit of having all that info so readily available)
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Lderochi
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Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 12:14 pm |
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Ditto leftcoast. I really like being able to go the site and quickly getting the answer to a question that just popped into my head. Very definitely worth the $15.
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limner
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| Joined: | Sun Jul 16th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tennessee USA |
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Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 01:46 pm |
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leftcoast wrote:
(I'm trying to resist the temptation of springing another $15 for another year's subscription, which I obviously don't need with both kids already in college. But it is hard to break the habit of having all that info so readily available)
LOL! I can see where that can happen. We have a 4th grader too, so I imagine that we'll be using this info again. Although, if it's like having infants so far apart (almost nine years) everything's changed by the time the second one comes around--car seats, nursing gadgets, etc.
I'll second the endorsements for U.S. News. For $15, you've got ready access. There are also other functions, such as Application Tracker, which sound very good, although we haven't checked them out yet.
Also, I found Princeton Review to be just plain wrong on occasion. Granted, perhaps 10 percentage points on an acceptance rate doesn't make a huge difference, but if I'm taking the time to note these data, then I expect them to be correct.
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DesperateDad
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 03:18 pm |
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also concur with leftcoast. Have been a subscriber for past two years, but haven't had time to renew -- yet. S leaves on Tuesday, and we just thought about shopping and packing. For $15 its one of the best values for college info (outside of this site)  . In addition to what others have noted, I also like the finaid and academic sections.
limner: with a 4th grader, perhaps you should buy stock in the company. LOL
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 03:31 pm |
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Simply the best way to spend $15 if your child will be looking at colleges this year. 
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WestrnMom
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 04:31 pm |
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Then it's on my list of things to do this weekend! Thank you for the information (is it really already September? I seem to have lost a few weeks!)
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leftcoast
Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2006 08:33 am |
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Limner, I read recently that college applications/enrollments are expected to start declining precipitously beginning in 2008, with a huge fall off by 2015, especially in Northern states. (Apparently colleges are already starting to worry about how that will impact them financially) So that may be good news for your fourth grader and for your sanity in the process -- when the younger sibling gets ready to start applying in the year 2013, maybe the competition will have died down and admissions will be a lot easier.
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limner
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Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2006 10:56 am |
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| LOL, DesperateDad. And leftcoast, I have to chuckle at us, too, because I've thoguht of just the fact that you brought up. You can tell we have strategic thinkers on this forum.
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2006 07:41 pm |
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Is the US News information updated every year and is it the most accurate? I've already found discrepancies between different sites that all claim to be accurate.
Strategic thinking--that is a new discussion. I was thinking about that this morning...
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limner
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Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2006 07:52 pm |
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| There are discrepancies out there, but I've found the U.S. News site pretty accurate. To pass on some wisdom I learned here, there's something called the "Common Data Set," which is what colleges are required to tell the government. This is where sites and publications like US News get a lot of their info. If you search for "Common Data Set" on the college's own web site, you can often find the info that they've submitted, avg. SAT and ACT scores, number of applicants, numbers admitted, etc. I've actually gotten anal enough to figure out acceptance rates from scratch, so to speak. So, if you're questioning some numbers you've come across, the Common Data Set (sometimes CDS) is a good way to check for accuracy. FWIW, I found the Princeton Review site to be annoyingly incorrect.
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2006 08:00 pm |
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Unfortunately most of the schools we're looking at don't have Common Data Sets listed, or they may be called something else and I can't locate them. Also, when do the colleges update? The information on a lot of them goes back to 2004-2005. I'm also looking at Freshman Profiles, which may or may not be updated.
I noticed some of the GPAs have gone up since last year, so I wasn't sure if that was a discrepancy as in a mistake or if some of the sites have newer data.
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2006 09:18 pm |
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wm:
be wary of self-reported data by colleges -- some are more creative than others. Some schools post data that excludes special admits like athletes or low-income kids thru programs like Questbridge or Gates. Others may weight the gpa and not footnote it -- for example, U-Miami has an average accepted gpa of 4.0 -- yeah, right.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2006 05:30 pm |
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First, some clarification. The Common Data Set information is NOT used by the Department of Education. The Federal Government has its own data collection system. The Common Data Sets are a collaborative effort between guidebook publishers, including the U.S. News and World Reports, and colleges themselves to make it easier for colleges to submit updated information to publishers. If anyone is interested in learning more, here is the link to the CDS initiative: http://www.commondataset.org/
DD is correct: It is easy for schools to fudge the Common Data Set information, and, depending on who you ask in the education community, doing so is done with varying degrees of frequency. Remember, there is no one really checking to see how schools compute their individual CDS numbers, and, judging from entries posted on an online forum for admissions professionals I read from time, there are lots of doubts among the colleges themselves about how the numbers should be tallied above and beyond trying to fudge them. The schools and the publishers themselves are the ones that decide what should be included, and who set parameters for how data should be tallied. There is basically very little punishment to schools who fudge their numbers here and there. Keep in mind that the publishers who use the CDS information supplied by schools take it at face value, and do not try to enforce accuracy or veracity.
A bit more reliable, in terms of being hard to fudge, is the data collection done by the U.S. Department of Education. The data definitions are a little more stringent and schools more likely to adhere to them because it ultimately affects their eligibility for Federal financial aid. The IPEDS COOL site - http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/ - is a searchable database of this information. Unfortunately, the US DOE is slower about getting the most current information up there, so it is usually not as current as the Common Data Set information provided by the schools themselves, so the CDS information is usually the most current information available.
Keep in mind that different publishers work on different publishing schedules, so some guidebooks will be using CDS information that is a year (and sometimes more) out of date. This accounts for a lot of the discrepencies between guidebooks. The U.S. News website, rankings and its annual published college guide, seem to be the most up-to-date. However, I too have found some errors in the U.S. News data when compared to the actual Common Data Sets of the colleges.
Therefore, it is not a bad idea to do a search on each school's website to see if you can find the actual CDS itself. Usually, you can turn up the CDS by doing a search, using quotation marks, for "Common Data Set." Another place to look for it on a college's website is the Office of Institutional Research. You'll often find other interesting tidbits on that website as well. It appears to me, however, that schools have started getting a little more protective about public access to their IR, but it still never hurts to do a search for it. I also like using google advanced --- sometimes you can find things that way that you can not through the school's more general search engine. (Tip: limit your google advanced search to the Domain of the school, i.e., http://www.yale.edu)
When available, I use a combination of all three --- US News, IPEDS and the actual institutional CDS report --- to figure things out. But, of course, it would be almost impossible to do this for every school, so I generally only do it for schools that are particularly of interest to my clients.
Last edited on Mon Sep 4th, 2006 05:50 pm by CarolynLawrence
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2006 05:50 pm |
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carolyn:
I really meant to infer that non-CDS numbers are most likely fudged (USC, Penn?); otherwise, a school would (could?) publish a CDS, which has reasonably clear instructions on how to complete it. Of course, the CDS and even the USNews instructions are subject to interpretation as UChicago just figured out -- they sat down with USNews bean counters, found out how they were interpreting the questions to thier detriment, and adjusted their numbers accordingly. Voila - back in the top 10. [Not to disparage Chicago -- just using them as an example -- and I do beleive their numbers are now correct.]
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2006 05:52 pm |
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The key is "subject to interpretation." Reading the messages posted on the CDS discussion forum is eye-opening. There is a lot of "intepretation" going on by colleges as to how to complete the CDS forms themselves from year to year. Keep in mind there is NO enforcement effort to make sure everyone is reporting their numbers in the same way, regardless of the instructions the CDS form itself provides. The CDS is simply a method for colleges to report their numbers to publishers, it is not legally binding in any way.
And, as the CDS Initiative notes on its own website, the publishers are also free to use and adapt the information according to their own needs. So, it is highly likely that the information in guidebooks has seen several "interpretations" along the way to publication.
Of course, we also have numbers provided by colleges themselves on their websites -- usually under "freshman profile." As you note, there is no oversight at all about how those numbers are calculated by each individual school, but I would suspect that most schools would not want those numbers to vary considerably from those submitted to publishers and the U.S. Government.
Last edited on Mon Sep 4th, 2006 05:59 pm by CarolynLawrence
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limner
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Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2006 06:02 pm |
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Oh, dear. I apologize for spreading incorrect info.  I'm the "CDS is for the government" culprit.
Carolyn, when you say you only do the numbers for schools that a client is interested in, what numbers would you crunch? Acceptance rates? SAT and ACT ranges?
Before I let myself get too anal about S's current college list (and isn't it easy to bind anxiety with research?), I'm curious about whether the USNews info is "good enough" for most purposes. (Let me know if I'm making no sense, I've been copyediting psych manuscripts all weekend.)
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2006 06:18 pm |
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Limner,
No need for apologies. It took a while before I figured it all out too. The CDS just seems so official that I think most folks automatically assume it is somehow government corrected.
I think the U.S. News Premium edition numbers are certainly "good enough" for most purposes. I particularly like some of the ways they crunch the numbers, especially the way they break out admit numbers between overall acceptance rate, ED/EA acceptances, and regular decision minus ED/EA. That can be very helpful at times, as can the data regarding male-female admissions.
One other thing to keep in mind, however, is that all of these published sources use the GPA/test scores of ENROLLED students, not ADMITTED students. I think it is a fair assumption that at least at some schools the medians for enrolled and admitted differ somewhat. Top students in the admitted students pile have other options and go elsewhere. Therefore, the median stats listed in guidebooks and the CDS's are likely to under-state the stats really needed to get in to some schools. Looking at the schools yield rate can sometimes help you decide if this might be the case. Plan accordingly.
Last edited on Mon Sep 4th, 2006 06:20 pm by CarolynLawrence
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2006 06:37 pm |
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Good points about analyzing the data. I know for a fact one school that claims to have a higher GPA this year offered merit scholarship money to at least two students with GPAs that were .2-.3 lower than the average. Which means that average is not completely accurate. Otherwise the merit money should go to those who are at or above the average, shouldn't it?
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