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outwest
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 07:20 pm |
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I have mentioned my Nephew here before. He is a Junior and has attended American International schools his entire life. He is an American citizen (mother is in the foreign service). He is currently in Berlin, Germany.
SAT1: M800/V790/W790 (one take)
SAT2: 2C 800/Physics 790/Language 760 (one take)
gpa: top 5%-will receive full IB diploma
speaks three languages (Polish-working level, English and German-fluent)
interests: Physics, possibly engineering, writing/reading, skiing (would like a college where he could ski sometimes),swim team.
personality: outgoing/many friends/practical/intellectual with a real world twist
politics: liberal leaning towards moderate
religion: raised catholic, but just barely practicing.
desires: doesn't want a school with heavy greek or heavy athletics. Open to anywhere in the country except the South.
Finances: efc is 25-30K, which is what his parents can afford
ECs: Math competitions, has won a ton of prizes internationally, not in the US. Swimming team (middle of the team, does it for fun). Does not have much volunteering because they have never lived anywhere that people do that. This lack of volunteer experience is his biggest worry. Not strong in the arts other then an excellent writer. he decided he did not want a purely math/science school like Harvey Mudd because he really likes literature and writing, too.
List he has so far of (for sure applications):
Dartmouth (visited-liked it)
Princeton (visited- liked it)
Reed (not visited, but likes the PNW and likes the philosophy of the place)
Williams (Physics is good, not visited)
Pomona (visited- liked it)
Cambridge in England (probably not financially feaible, though, but wants to try)
St. Frances Xavier in Canada (financial safety): liked it and the location. Full price for noncanadian students is still under 25K.
A major University in Berlin (financial safety): my sister has told me the name twice, but it doesn't stick This is on his list in case he decides to stay close to his family.
considering: Swarthmore and Haverford.
Oh, these schools he has visited and does not like: University of Chicago (not sure why), Harvard, Yale and Brown. Harvard and Yale were too big and he 'didn't like the vibe' at Brown. Colorado College is out because he didn't like the block plan.
He needs some middle level schools and is trying to find about three of them to apply to that may give him money. His parents are encouraging 5 more since most of his choices are crap shoot schools. He is open to having a final list of 10-12 since he is not sure how colleges will take his background as a US citizen who is more like an International. He wants a small or midsized college.
Ideas?
Last edited on Thu May 29th, 2008 07:37 pm by outwest
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Consolation
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 09:00 pm |
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I think he should take a look at Middlebury, Bowdoin, Bates, and Colby. Carleton is a thought also. (Reading his very impressive stats and likes/dislikes, my first thoughts were Dartmouth and Williams, so I'm happy to see them on the list.) Although these schools are certainly very selective, they are not quite as difficult to get into as some of the schools on his list. I would think that Colby and Bates might qualify as "moderate" for someone with his stats. All of the above are northern LACs that would offer him a great general education and access to skiing. Whether they have engineering programs that would meet his needs, if he chooses to go in that direction, I cannot say.
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 09:47 pm |
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He obviously like the small Unis, and my first thought was Emory, but upon reread, I see that the South is out. Also, suggest rethinking Dartmouth and Williams -- both heavy into a party-hearty scene. How about Tufts, Rochester?
As a US citizen, I believe all US colleges will evaluate him in the domestic applicant pool.
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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 11:59 pm |
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I would really caution against schools like Bowdoin, Bates, Carleton, etc.
Berlin is a vibrant, international city, and unless he is really, really sure he will enjoy a small school in a small town, I would make sure he includes some more cosmopolitan schools in the mix.
(I am making this point as someone who graduated from an international boarding school and was miserable at Carleton.)
So maybe... University of Michigan? Boston University? Georgetown (maybe not a match though)? Tufts?
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outwest
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 12:02 am |
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Thanks! I will forward these suggestions. They all sound great.
He isn't a partier, but he lives in Germany. He is social. He can drink in Germany (age 15 they can drink) so alcohol and other substances are not something that matter much to him. They are old hat and boring, not a cool thing to do like they are for American college age kids. It is very different. So, I don't know that drinking culture is going to bother him at all! He thinks for himself pretty well and drinks very little. And, you are right, Aardvark, he is used to living in cosmopolitan places. I do think he is used to constant stimulation around him. He is not a big man on campus type, though,but he does love museums and such. He wants small classes, though, not huge ones.
Last edited on Fri May 30th, 2008 12:06 am by outwest
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Consolation
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 01:33 am |
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If he wants to be near a city or in a cosmopolitan atmosphere, that changes things considerably. In that case, I might not bother with Colby or Bates. I think that Bowdoin and Middlebury would still be worth a look, though, as would Amherst (I don't know why I didn't think of that before.) Elite northeastern LACs tend to attract students from pretty sophisticated backgrounds, including those who have lived abroad and well-to-do internationals. Williams is a very vital place, although quite isolated and half the size of Dartmouth.
If he finds Yale and Harvard too big, he is likely to find the University of Michigan too big, at something like five or six times the size! (Not to mention the fact that Ann Arbor, although a nice college town, doesn't exactly offer the cultural scene of Berlin, Paris, or New York...or Boston or Chicago.) Tufts and Georgetown would certainly be worth a look. There's always Northwestern..
My S, who doesn't drink, doesn't seem to be worried about being overwhelmed by drunks at Dartmouth. He is also attracted by the fact that a very high proportion of students study abroad. Perhaps he will find out that he made a big mistake next year.
Last edited on Fri May 30th, 2008 01:43 am by Consolation
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mominva
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 02:51 am |
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I read your post and thought Harvey Mudd, and I see Pomona on the list. Did he look at HMC when he visited Pomona?
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outwest
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 06:13 am |
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Yes, he did like Havey Mud very, very much, but he finally decided that he did not want a science/math based school since he wants to explore literature and writing also.
Consolation, great suggestions, thanks!
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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 11:07 am |
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It may be somewhat counterintuitive, but I think people who come from unusual backgrounds may have a better chance of finding their niche at a bigger school.
If you are in a small school in a small town, you have a specific set of options for socializing and getting involved. 2,000 people is not a large group from which to select your friends. Although there will be internationals and people who lived abroad, as a practical matter this will be a handful of people. (What if he has a hankering to speak Polish???)
On the other hand, a big school and/or big city offer huge possibilities (cf the song about NY, "if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere...")
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Chedva
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 12:02 pm |
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While the city is not nearly as vibrant as Berlin, University of Rochester may fit the bill for him. It's generous with merit aid, has about 4,500 undergrads and 2,000 grad students, has club skiing and just plain ski trips. Small Greek life.
He might also want to consider Brandeis or Tufts, small universities just outside, and within easy shot, of Boston.
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warblers
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 02:18 pm |
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Open to anywhere in the country except the South. I've seen this a lot, and it always pains me to see it. 
What about Occidental or Lewis & Clark?
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 02:29 pm |
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Given his excellent stats, this is how I would break down his application list thus far:
Roof
Dartmouth
Princeton
Williams
Pomona
Cambridge
Wall
Reed
Foundation
St. Frances Xavier in Canada
A major University in Berlin
His slant: small to medium size (<5000 students), LAC's in small towns OK (given Williams), Physics focus with generalized liberal arts education preferred, but apparently not essential as Cambridge would be almost exclusively focused on Physics and "Maths". Given that he has already visited and liked some small town schools, I don't see that his list speaks for a need for an urban area.
Needs: As you stipulate, a few more "wall" (match) schools. Reed, BTW, has an excellent Physics program.
Suggestions (some of which have already been mentioned):
Rice -- is a "ceiling" (reachy match) for him. Is Texas "south"? Should at least be investigated.
Carleton - if Williams is on the list, Carleton should be, too, as it is a little less selective and has a more successful Physics program.
Grinell - ditto, and a little less selective than Carleton. Strong financial aid possibilities and a good Physics program.
Carnegie Mellon - if small town schools are a concern.
Case Western - the same, and a little less selective still
U of Rochester and Haverford, too, should be looked at. Amherst and Swarthmore are appropriate, too, but only if looked at as a roof schools.
Lawrence would be a safety for him, but it has a good Physics program, too.
Observation: It appears he doesn't need anymore "roof" schools, but he should ask himself if Cambridge is desirable, then why not an American science/tech school that is as prestigious but would given him more exposure to arts/humanities. Caltech comes immediately to mind, and MIT, too, if its not too big.
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 02:49 pm |
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FYI, these are the top 30 schools where baccalaureates earned have eventually gone on to obtain Physics Ph.D's (Ph.D earned 1996-2005 vs. baccalaureates granted 1991-2000). Values are Physics doctorates/1000 grads.
California Institute of Technology, 66.1
Harvey Mudd College, 50.7
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 18.1
Reed College, 13.2
University of Chicago, 9.9
Rice University, 8.3
Carleton College, 8.2
Princeton University, 7.9
New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, 7.8
Stevens Institute of Technology, 6.8
Harvard University, 6.7
Case Western Reserve University, 6.3
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology, 6.3
Colorado School of Mines, 6.1
Swarthmore College, 5.4
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, 5.4
Goshen College, 5.4
Lawrence University, 5.3
University of Rochester, 5.1
Grinnell College, 5.0
King College, 5.0
Yale University, 4.9
Beloit College, 4.7
Haverford College, 4.6
Amherst College, 4.5
Gustavus Adolphus College, 4.2
Cornell University, All Campuses, 4.2
Monmouth College, 4.0
Marlboro College, 4.0
Carnegie Mellon University, 3.9
Obviously there will be a far greater concentration of students seeking Physics careers at Caltech and Harvey Mudd than there will be at LAC's (like Reed) and more general Research schools (like Harvard), but the list, I think, is still instructive.
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CardinalFang
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 04:29 pm |
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Mrs. Aardvark makes a good point about how a cosmopolitan kid might feel in a rural or suburban environment, but I notice that he didn't like any of the schools he visited that are in cities: Brown, Chicago, Harvard, Yale. And of the schools he visited and liked, none are in cities (Reed is in Portland, but he hasn't visited Reed).
So the New England LACs, including Bowdoin, Bates, Middlebury, Colby, and the midwest schools, including Carleton, Grinnell, Lawrence, Beloit, look like possibilities. I was going to suggest Macalester as a safety for him, but he hasn't liked any other schools in cities.
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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 04:44 pm |
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True, Cardinal Fang, but he is also considering a school in Berlin and one in Cambridge.
So perhaps he isn't against a city school in principal, or maybe he just hasn't thought about it that much.
Remember, this is a person who has not lived in the States much. So his impressions of a school are not grounded in the experience of American high schools.
Being an expat and starting college is peculiar. Unlike international students, one does not look foreign or speak with an accent. Yet one has not had many of the experiences which are a starting bond between freshmen.
Elite northeastern LACs tend to attract students from pretty sophisticated backgrounds, including those who have lived abroad and well-to-do internationals.
Yes, but the prevailing culture is upper middle class, American educated suburban kids. If this student fits in, it won't be an issue, but, if not, he will not have any other social groups as alternatives in a small, one college town.Last edited on Fri May 30th, 2008 04:44 pm by Mrs. Aardvark
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CardinalFang
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 05:21 pm |
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Mrs. Aardvark wrote:
Remember, this is a person who has not lived in the States much. So his impressions of a school are not grounded in the experience of American high schools.
Being an expat and starting college is peculiar. Unlike international students, one does not look foreign or speak with an accent. Yet one has not had many of the experiences which are a starting bond between freshmen.
I'm changing the subject a bit to ask Mrs. Aardvark what she recommends for students who don't have the experience that American high school students have. Outwest's nephew is in that situation and so are the children of the homeschoolers on this list, including my Fang Jr.
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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 05:59 pm |
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My experience was 30 years ago, and also atypical in that I did not have a chance to visit any schools. (When I returned to the States for school, I had been out of the country for 5 1/2 years.)
As you've seen from my earlier advice, I suggest that students with unusual backgrounds go to bigger schools which are not in small towns. This enables students to make connections outside the student population. For example, as a grad student I worked as a waitress in a restaurant, which was a very social and fun experience for me, but it was the kind of job I never could have found in Northfield, MN. Also, large universities have bigger populations of "underrepresented" students (for lack of a better term), so, for example, a homeschooler would be much more likely to find a critical mass of homeschoolers at a bigger school than a smaller one.
That's not to say that a homeschooler will necessarily end up hanging out with homeschoolers for the rest of his/her life; it's just that it might be nice to know some people who are going through a similar experience, especially as one is first settling in.
I think the other key thing is finding a school which is welcoming and friendly. Some kids from a "sophisticated" or indeed any background may be caught up in what they have already defined as cool and happening. This may not leave them particularly open toward people who have had radically different experiences from their own. (When I started at Carleton, not ONE person evinced any interest in where I had lived or the experiences I had had there.) On the contrary, it is difficult to be new to college and finding ones own way, and often college students therefore bond with people who are more or less like themselves.
Clearly, this is all moot if a student visits a campus and gains the sense that he/she would feel at home at a given school. I just think underrepresented students should try and get some sense of how they will fit in without a cohort. I do think minority students often struggle with the same issue of being underrepresented and coming from backgrounds outside the campus cultural norm.
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Chedva
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 06:11 pm |
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so, for example, a homeschooler would be much more likely to find a critical mass of homeschoolers at a bigger school than a smaller one.
That may be true, but remember that a homeschooler is likely to have spent much of his/her school life with a teacher:student ratio of 1:1. And in an extremely nurturing environment. I'm not sure that having other homeschoolers at a large school would compensate for the larger lecture intro classes and lesser nurturing environment that one would have at a larger school. Nor, given that, am I convinced that you'd actually find more homeschoolers at a larger school. I would venture a guess (based on nothing more than my own intuition, never having homeschooled) that homeschoolers would have a tendency to seek out smaller schools with lower teacher:student ratios and more nurturing environments.
I'm not sure I'd send a kid who's never had to work his/her way through a high school bureaucracy off to deal with a larger college one!
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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 06:22 pm |
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This is where the counterintuitive part comes in.
Being unhappy at Carleton (= small nurturing school), I transferred to University of Michigan (my mother suggested it would save money because I was a state resident). I transferred in as a nondegree student.
Contrary to what one might expect, I got the most individual attention at the University of Michigan of any school I attended (undergrad or grad).
My Russian lit prof initiated contact with me because he was impressed with my work. (I eventually even had dinner at his house.) After meeting with my advisor, he suggested I take a small honors course he was offering. (I did.)
The one large lecture course I took (Western Civilization) was excellent. I eventually went on an archaeological dig with the professor from this course.
I took lessons in the Music School, where I had a juried review of my playing just like the music school students. Again, the head of the department gave me very personal and encouraging feedback.
CardinalFang Jr has been homeschooled, and I suspect his intellectual curiosity and the fact that he is a self starter will stand out, wherever he goes to school.
Similarly, Descartes' nephew is a very strong student and will be a standout.
I think such students should seriously consider honors programs at well respected universities. It is indeed possible to get individual attention, especially for the self motivated student. They will find the nurturing they need, and, in the wrong small school, will feel constrained.Last edited on Fri May 30th, 2008 06:24 pm by Mrs. Aardvark
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CardinalFang
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 06:31 pm |
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I haven't heard of any homeschoolers going off to college and wanting to hang out only with other homeschoolers. Maybe that's because homeschoolers are used to being with schooled kids (on sports teams, in scouts, in other activities) or maybe it's because there are rarely enough homeschoolers to make a social circle.
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