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SoCalMom
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| Joined: | Fri May 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 05:42 pm |
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Good morning. I thought I'd better post now since it's supposed to be roasting in LA today.
Here's a topic/viewpoint I'm not sure I've seen addressed yet (Carolyn will let me know if I'm mistaken.)
It's likely our DS will be a math, science or engineering major. So I've been reading various articles as to whether a LAC or major research university would be better for this (as a very broad filter) and getting mixed opinions, as obviously a major factor is how well the student does.
Here's the interesting part. In speaking to a variety of PhDs I know, representing a wide variety of fields, what I'm hearing is this. If my son ends up wanting a career that requires graduate school, then the more important decision to be made is not where he goes for undergrad, but for grad.
For example, there's a PhD in Italian history who was a Penn undergrad and said she ended up taking some classes from their grad school, which kind of knocked Penn out for consideration for grad school (she was happy where she ended up.)
This sets forth the possibility of another dimension in the selection process that I had not thought about before. And maybe we shouldn't factor it in (clearly not at this stage with DS being a rising junior) since there's a lot of ground to be covered between getting into college, getting that BA/BS and grad school.
It's an interesting wrinkle though, and one which might, as an observation but not a selection filter, take a bit off that pressure valve come admissions time.
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DesperateDad
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 846 |
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 06:02 pm |
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Can't opine on LAC v. Uni for engineering -- obviously, Harvey Mudd and Swathmore are extremely strong in eng, as are many large public Unis. Then, of course, there is that small, almost LAC-like college in Pasadena.
But, a comment on undergrad/grad -- it really depends on the college. Some colleges, like Univ of North Carolina, appreciate that their undergrads apply to their grad school. OTOH, the UCs have a history of preferring that undergrads go to a dfferent campus for grad school.
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mackinaw
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Michigan |
| Posts: | 786 |
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 06:03 pm |
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SoCalMom,
Simply as a matter of "odds," students who graduate from LAC's are more likely to go on to earn PhD's than students who graduate from large universities (even highly selective ones). Two broad classes of explanation are often given for this difference: (a) selection (type of student recruited; lower percentage of LAC students who are "preprofessional" e.g., business, law, medicine, engineering, for which PhD's aren't the typical terminal degree); and (b) learning environment (LAC's allow more independent thinking and research, nourish broader skills, etc.).
As a graduate of an LAC (Reed) which has one of the highest "PhD rates" of any college/university in the country (I went on to earn a PhD), I think both factors play a role. At the same time, I think really motivated and smart students can get just as far ultimately coming from either type of institution, and some that might be "in between" in the sense that they are "bigger than an LAC" but "not a megauniversity" (e.g., U of Chicago, as opposed to, say, UCLA or UMichigan).
(BTW/ I grew up in L.A. and all 4 of my sibs graduated from college there: UCLA, USC, and Caltech.)
Last edited on Sat May 17th, 2008 07:40 pm by mackinaw
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 06:39 pm |
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DesperateDad wrote: The UCs have a history of preferring that undergrads go to a dfferent campus for grad school.
I believe this to be true of the Ivies, the Big 10 schools, and many others. It is possible to continue on as a grad student after claiming your diploma, but it tends not to be supported well (i.e., fellowships and TA positions go elsewhere). It is more true of students aiming for Ph.D.'s as opposed to Masters' and less true of URM's. (The grad schools seek diversity, too).
The same "taboo" holds true when moving from doctorate to faculty/researcher.
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CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 3309 |
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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You may not be asking the right question. You're asking "which is better, an LAC or a research university?" The real question you need to ask is "which is better for MY SON'S individual needs, an LAC or a research university?" (or maybe a specialized technical school or a master's university...)
There are plenty of Phd's who took the research university route for undergrad, and plenty who took the LAC route. There are stellar programs at all sorts of schools for math, science, and engineering. I don't think it is necessarily true that a particular type of institution is going to be the best route for every student....but for most students, there may be a type of institution that is going to be a better match with their personal learning style, what they need/want out of their undergrad educational experience, and even, to a good degree, their personality.
So, perhaps the place to start is by asking yourself, and your son: What does he picture for his undergraduate experience? How does he learn best? What types of people does he want around him? Which types of learning opportunities excite him most? In which kind of environment, both academic and social, would he feel most comfortable, challenged, and successful? What types of relationships does he need with his teachers to thrive? Another helpful question to ask: What has your son liked and disliked about his high school learning experience --- and how does he want his undergrad experience to be similar or different?
For some kids, a research university is going to be the best fit. For some kids, an LAC is going to be the best fit. For others, a technical institution might be the best fit. For some kids, it might be entirely possible to find good fits at a variety of types of institutions.
It's not that kids can't do well in a school that isn't the best fit for them personally (they can), but I think the likelihood is greater that they'll thrive and succeed if they land in an institution that does fit them personally. Reed, MIT and U of Michigan, for instance, might all send lots of kids on for Phd's. But for any particular kid, one of the three might be a better place to thrive, succeed, and feel happy. And thriving, succeeding, and feeling happy in undergrad work is what probably leads to going on to get a Phd., not the type of school you attended.
Last edited on Sat May 17th, 2008 08:05 pm by CarolynLawrence
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CarolynLawrence
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| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 08:00 pm |
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By the way, don't know if you saw the list of links for prospective science majors I had in my blog this week, but there are several articles among those links discussing the effects of the type of undergrad institution on success in different science fields, so I'll post the link to the article here: http://collegehunt.blogspot.com/2008/05/great-websites-for-future-science.html
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lfm
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 114 |
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Posted: Thu May 22nd, 2008 02:15 am |
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| Hi - my son will be starting at Caltech this fall as a math major. He plans to go for a PhD, and probably stay in academia. It seemed that an important factor in college choice was undergrad research options. Caltech has a great program.
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