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outwest
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 04:55 pm |
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Distribution requirements are often the last thing students look at when making a college list and choosing a college. These heavily effect their college experience, though, so I thought it would be pertinent to talk about it in this 'which colleges are right for me or my child' since the Juniors are now making their lists.
Next week D has three AP tests. Is she studying for them? NOT! At least she is taking them. Her college does grant credit for the scores, but only for 4s on a few and 5's on others. A 3 doesn't cut it. Most of the ones she has taken in the last two years qualify, but just count for elective credit. It will give her more freedom to choose more interesting classes and it may allow her to have one less class a couple semesters if she likes. Bryn Mawr will still make her do their distribution requirements.
Of all the colleges she applied to, Bryn Mawr has the toughest requirements and she doesn't even seem to be bothered by that! In fact, the other day she told me how excited she is to do a massive thesis senior year and have her own personal desk in one of the libraries (seniors are assigned one). She told me she is happy they 'force' them to try things she wouldn't otherwise take. BM has a core writing and reading intensive seminar class freshman year. It even has 8 units of PE and a swimming test required. There is a language requirement and other heavy requirements in all the different disciplines. They say it takes two full years to fulfill the distribution requirements. Their study abroad options are very strict in what will qualify.
One college my D applied to had NO requirements other then the major sequence (Grinnell). One had no requirements, but if you did certain things on your own you got a ‘latin’ diploma (Smith). I know my sister has said several times that the distribution classes her little LAC required way back when are the reason she was able to ace the foreign service exam. Many students would avoid a hard science or a writing intensive class if they weren’t required.
I am surprisingly very happy about those requirements, but understand that many kids are sick of being told what to take.
What do your kids colleges require?
How flexible are they?
Did the distribution requirements play a role in the decision?
Are you happy about them?
Do your kid even realize what they are getting into and have they thought about it? Last edited on Fri May 2nd, 2008 05:00 pm by outwest
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 06:32 pm |
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It's been my experience, that colleges fall into one of three groups: Core, Distribution, none, with the vast majority in the middle group.
Colleges well known for their core curriulum include UChicago and Columbia. Colleges with no required courses include Smith, Amherst and Brown. And, many students self-select to such schools.
But, the majority of colleges, even major unis like the UCs, typically require 6-8 courses outside of the student's field or major, ignoring specialized majors like engineering.
But, to answer your question, its usually pretty easy to find a distributive class of interest. Art distibutives can be fulfilled with a film class or hands-on art or art history, and the like. Even quant classes don't have to be math - some schools allow Logic or Linguistics as a math distributive. PE seems to a a NE thing; even Harvard has a swimming requirement. But for schools nearby a slope, skiing counts for PE.
Last edited on Fri May 2nd, 2008 06:33 pm by DesperateDad
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ellenrch
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:08 pm |
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Outwest: I'm so happy someone else's senior has no interest in studying for AP exams! The chips will just fall . . . somewhere.
Yes, my son's big state U (Missouri) does have distribution requirements, as does the journalism school, which has its own set of requirements for courses you must take outside your major. To be honest, I have decided not to try to figure it all out--it's his turn.
I think core/distribution requirements invite students to explore areas that might be off their radar screens. It also reminds kids who want to jump right into the specifics of a major that a well-rounded liberal arts education is an essential base for lifelong learning. My son, like outwest's D, is thrilled that he can take astronomy, or comparative religion, or whatever. He can hardly decide what to do first. And in the honors college, he'll have most of those core courses in small classes with top professors.
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Wstrdg
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:59 pm |
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| Ddad, even the UC engineering majors have a fair amount of distrib requirements! My engineer-to-be S will need a one-year (three quarters) sequence in each of these: Humanities, Social Sciences, Writing, Fine Arts or Forgn Lang.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 11:36 pm |
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When he first starting thinking about college, my son thought it would be cool to go somewhere with no distribution requirements.
Then he decided to go to Reed. 
To graduate he'll need to:
1. Take a year long course entitled Humanities 110 which delves into the great books of ancient Rome and Greece
2. Take three Physical Ed courses
3. Take two courses or one year-long course in each of the following four areas (can not use courses in your major to satisfy):
- Literature, Philosophy, Religion & Arts
- History, Social Sciences, & Psychology
- Natural Sciences
- Math, logic, foreign language and lingustics
4. Complete course requirements in his intended major
5. Pass a qualifying exam at the end of junior year in his major in order to go on to his senior year
6. Complete a year long thesis project in his major in his senior year
7. In many departments, successfully defend his thesis before a board of faculty
There's one more requirement, but I can't think of it right now. By the way, the first year, Reed strongly suggests that students only take 3 courses. The rest of the time, it's 4, so there won't be a lot of downtime to play around if he's going to graduate on time. They also won't allow AP courses to be used to satisfy distribution requirements, and they're not to keen on transferring credits from other colleges either.
So, what does my son think about all of this? He now thinks it is the coolest thing in the world. In fact, as he pointed out, he would probably end up meeting most of the distribution requirements anyhow because he is interested in so many different subjects.
I'm not worried about it. I think he'll be getting a great education...that is, if he survives.
Last edited on Fri May 2nd, 2008 11:42 pm by CarolynLawrence
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 11:40 pm |
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By the way, at Beloit, my daughter needs to take two courses in each of these areas:
Humanities
Social sciences
Science or math
She also needs one "interdisciplinary course" and a course indentified as one that helps students "write to learn."
And, she needs to satisfy her major requirements.
AP courses can be used for credit only, not to satisfy distribution courses. (I think that is pretty standard at many schools) She had no trouble transferring two courses from other colleges, including one that she's using towards her major. They even gave her credit for her internship this summer, and for being art director of the student recording company this year.
She completed all of her distribution requirements by the end of her first semester in sophomore year. She will almost be done with her major requirements by the end of next semester. So, she's thinking of taking on double minors.
But, she agreed with my son -- the distribution requirements were no big deal because, with the exception of math, she probably would have taken courses in most of those subjects just out of interest. Of course, she doesn't have to write a thesis (but she does need to do a major senior exhibition for her major).
Last edited on Fri May 2nd, 2008 11:44 pm by CarolynLawrence
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outwest
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:36 am |
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Carolyn, your sons requirements sound very rigorous, but similar to Bryn Mawr's, minus that Reed exam and defense of his thesis.
Your Ds sound similar to my oldest Ds requirements at Mill College. The requirements were there, but they weren't overwhelming and easy to meet.
Here are Bryn Mawr's spelled out. Thy require 4 classes a semester to graduate although some AP credit can be used t lighten the load:
1) one semester of a discussion/writing intensive college seminar taken first semester Freshman year. They do get a choice of subject.
2) completed two courses above the elementary level of a language (basically 2 years required although you can test out of the first year).
3) Quantitative: one year of math, but it has to be MATH
4) two courses in the social sciences
5) two courses in natural sciences and math ( not counting the quant. one) and at least one must be a laboratory science.
6) two courses in the humanities, only one of which can be art, dance, music or theater.
7) A major sequence. Major sequence courses may not be used to fulfill the distribution courses unless cross registered with both departments.
8) 2 years of PE
9) a swimming proficiency test
10) a senior thesis
Maybe the requirement you are forgetting is a ethnic diversity one? Lots of colleges are doing that now.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:40 am |
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The place where these requirements come back to bite is if the kid transfers mid-way through; as my son discovered it is very possible to have done a resaonable job of meeting the distribution requirements of College A, and then arrive on the campus of College B as a junior and find that there are all sorts of unfilled requirements. Even if the courses at College A cover the same ground, they might not meet a specific requirement --- my son had to do a lot of petitioning and pull up the class syllabi in order to establish that he had already completed most of the work.
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outwest
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 01:07 am |
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You are absolutely right, leftcoast. My middle D transferred from one public uni. in CA to a different one. As I mentioned elsewhere she had to petition and prove that the classes at college A met college Bs requirements. Since they were both CA publics she was able to prove all the ones she petitioned (I think there were 4), but I can only imagine the hassle of a small LAC to a large public!
It is best and easiest if at all possible to start and end in the same place. One of my Ds community college classes (History of Art) did NOT transfer (not rigorous enough) and she had to retake that.
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Fireflyscout
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 02:43 am |
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Carleton College -
Arts and Literature - 2 classes
Humanities - 2 classes
Social Sciences - 3 classes
Mathematics and Natural Sciences - 3 classes
A designated writing-intensive course and writing portfolio
Language requirement (can test out of this requirement)
A designated Recognition and Affirmation of Differences course
PE - 4 classes
Last edited on Sat May 3rd, 2008 11:02 am by Fireflyscout
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leftcoast
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 02:50 am |
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For my son, the irony was that he was trying to get courses that were clearly more rigorous to qualify -- but the classes didn't have the right "name". For example, he has a first year seminar on a biology topic -- but it was a writing class, not a science. My d's college is the same way -- there are a variety of topics covered in first year seminars, but the primary focus is research, discussion & writing. My son's transfer college saw "biology" and they still wanted a basic writing course -- I think on that one my son had some emails back to his prof at the first school to get some help. He even had a problem getting his Japanese course to fill the foreign language requirement, because school #2 did not offer Japanese, so therefore it wasn't slotted into the "foreign language" box -- but fortunately that one was mostly a computer glitch; I don't think he had any difficulty convincing the humans at the school that Japanese was, indeed, a foreign language.
I think my son has spent a LOT of time petitioning for various waivers at school #2. He certainly has become a master at the petition process!
Since transfer is always a possibility, I would advise all students to keep good records of their courses and hang on to course syllabi & copies of papers/tests. (I say this after visiting my daughter and actually helping her stick all of her old linguistics homework into the recycling bin... she was just trying to clear out some stuff in preparing to move).
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outwest
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 02:54 am |
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"A designated Recognition and Affirmation of Differences course"
Yep, there's that diversity requirement.
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alanarch
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 03:14 am |
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At Bates, they require three writing "attentive" courses and complete 2 concentrations outside their major. A concentration has a focus but within that focus it is multidisciplinary. An example is Law and Society. In the course catalog, courses will be designated as part of the concentration and they span many different disciplines.
I still think some sort of Western Civilization course should be required.
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 03:52 am |
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Alanarch:
With the gross ignorance of the Middle and Far East in so much of our countryman - the need for courses in World Civilizations should be a priority, howsoever, knowledge of Western Civilization should certinaly be a good section of such a concentration.
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outwest
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 04:06 am |
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All the California public universities require a world history and civilation class. I agree, everyone should.
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Fireflyscout
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 11:04 am |
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Carleton is currently reviewing the RAD requirement. D got it out of the way with a Religion in Japanese Culture class.
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mackinaw
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:11 pm |
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Approval of transfer credits, or as meeting specific course requirements, usually falls on the registrar and on individual departments (often, academic advisors within departments). When I was a department chair, I often had to review such cases. One aspect is the "credit" approval. If college A offers a 3-credit course in a subject (or a 4-credit course on a quarter system) but college B requires 4 semester credits in a subject, the student falls short (here comes a reading course....). Sometimes it just involves a reasonable judgment whether a given course in college A is "equivalent" to a course in college B. Should a college A course in the "Politics of English-Speaking Democracies" count as equivalent to a college B course in "Politics of Western Democracies"? Close call.
At other times, it's the "quality" of the course. And here's where Leftcoast's advice is especially relevant. What did the student actually DO in the course? At one extreme is what I would sometimes encounter, "Course on Shipboard." Either a study-tour or a summer course, in which the students went from port to port or town to town, heard lectures, no doubt learned a lot about the local cheeses, beers, and "culture." But did they have to read anything? Did they have to write anything? What were the assignments? Was there a syllabus, or was it rather a travel itinerary? If there was some academic meat to the course, it had a decent chance of getting approved (sometimes we asked to see the paper), at least as "general credit" toward the major though perhaps not as "equivalent" to a specific course in our curriculum.
Last edited on Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:12 pm by mackinaw
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Chedva
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:45 pm |
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University of Rochester has very lenient distribution requirements. The only course requirement is a semester writing seminar (you can pick from many different topics).
Rochester then divides all courses into one of three areas: Humanties, Social Sciences, Math & Natural Science. A student majors in one area, and takes a cluster of three related courses in the other two. One of the courses in a cluster can count towards your major. (For example, psych majors must take one course in Brain & Cognitive Sciences. There is a cluster of three Brain & Cognitive courses, so that one course can serve for both the major and the cluster.) In each area, there are twenty or more clusters. You can also petition to create your own cluster, but you must show that the courses are somehow related. So just taking a intro Art History, French and an English lit course doesn't count as a cluster.
Of course, double majors in different areas count for clusters, as do various minors.
I hpe that makes sense!
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 07:47 pm |
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Another area that students tend to overlook when comparing colleges is the differences in MAJOR requirements. Some departments at certain schools can have very specific course requirements for a major, whereas at other schools the same major can boil down to "any 10 courses in the subject." It's important to not just look at the differences, but understand the philosophy behind the department's requirements. For instance, at Beloit, the art department has some pretty stringent requirements in terms of art history, survey courses, and upper level courses chosen in different mediums. It might be frustrating to someone wanting to focus just on, say, "painting" to learn that they'll also need to take sculpture, print-making, photography, etc. And, some art students, according to my daughter, are surprised that they have to write papers for studio classes.
So, junior parents: as your child looks at different colleges, encourage them to look not just at the general distribution requirement differences, but the differences between their intended major at various colleges.
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