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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 06:34 am |
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CFang:
The possibilities of circumstances changing is always to be considered.
The FAFSA is not an invasive or difficult task, It is really not a 'hoop to jump thru" type of item. As Outwest stated, (I attended the same briefing at her D's school the previous year when my D2 was visiting) her D's school and others are reluctant to initiate FA for returning students whom did not file an FAFSA as prospective students.
I believe fervently that it is in the nature of an "urban legend' that checking the aid box is a significant or even a minor consideration in the acceptance decision.
Frankly, the school does not have to offer grant aid to any student. Loans are either federal related or private transactions (parent/student with bank etc). Some few school will carry a small loan directly (but that usually is in instances when they really want the child to attend).
Ergo, they can accept a student and give little or no direct aid, so there really is no basis for a school outright rejecting an applicant because they are interested in the possibility of FA.
I know that this 'legend' has legs and runs every year, but frankly since 1980, I have been filing FAFSA documents for each of our 7 children and have advised relatives and friends over that same span of time and checking that box for FA. We have had 42-3 acceptances, 6 rejections and 5-6 waitlist results. Each rejection was for a school that was most definitely a reach.
I don't think that checking the box increases or decreases the offers of Merit Scholarships, the school offers these MS based on the school's desire to have the student enroll, however it could be possible in some rare instances that checking the bax might increase the possibility of MS, I cannot say, because we have always checked that box for a 16 of the past 28 years.
Outwest: I hope you received that wonderful binder/folder at BMC at the FA briefing. I must admit that I took two and each is serving my D2 and D3 records very well. Having all the FAFSA/Profile/tax forms/FA offers? and other yearly correspondence in one folder for all four years is great. 
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mominva
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| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | DC Suburbs |
| Posts: | 335 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 12:13 pm |
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CFang,
We also knew our situation would not qualify us for FA; but we wanted our kids invested via the unsubsidized Stafford loans.
Our solution, finally at child #3, was to check that 'not applying for aid' box and getting apps in before the FA deadline. We submitted FAFSA later on and were offered, surprise!, unsubsidized Stafford loans and PLUS loans.
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CardinalFang
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 17th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 145 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 03:32 pm |
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jocelynDAD wrote:
I believe fervently that it is in the nature of an "urban legend' that checking the aid box is a significant or even a minor consideration in the acceptance decision.
The Macalester Financial Aid office told me to my face that for the last few acceptances, ability to pay was considered and the college admitted only student who didn't need financial aid.
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Chedva
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| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 03:56 pm |
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CardinalFang, the key words in Macalester's response are "didn't need aid", not "didn't apply for aid." Need-aware colleges care about the bottom line - which student will be cheaper to the school to admit. I believe that a student who did not apply and a student who applied but did not qualify are treated the same; they will both cost the school nothing. And as noted, it matters only for the final few admissions, those students who are on the fence.
I don't think it hurts a full-pay student to file the forms.
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Wstrdg
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 6th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 410 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 04:45 pm |
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CFang,
You can always phone the financial aid folks and ask what's required for merit aid. Tell them you don't plan to file the FAFSA. Lots of schools award some merit aid based just on the application itself. Others require that you specifically request that the application be considered for merit aid. Others do require the FAFSA for any aid at all.
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CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 07:01 pm |
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I think it is important to note that most colleges these days are placing a higher emphasis on retaining students once they enroll. While some colleges may say they won't give aid later if you haven't applied for it initially, I think it is fair to say that MOST colleges understand that family circumstances DO sometimes change, and will work with a student when that situation does occur. I don't want anyone to get the impression that if your family has a change of circumstances --- for instance, a parent loses a job, or suffers a major illness - you are out of luck in terms of getting aid at every college.
If your family circumstances change, and you did not initially apply for aid, I would always suggest talking with the financial aid offices of individual colleges directly, rather than assuming that no help will be available because you didn't apply for aid initially.
I also have to respectfully disagree with JocelynDad about openly need-aware colleges. The colleges who are openly need-aware are very clear that they do indeed consider the amount of need for at least some students, typically, as Chevda indicated, those who fall towards the bottom on the pile. Having worked with a much larger sample of students than JDad's seven kids, I have indeed seen students who needed substantial financial aid denied or waitlisted, and been told BY ADMISSIONS OFFICERS themselves at the schools that the student's amount of need was a factor.
However, as Chevda also points out, the key is "Amount of Need." A student with an EFC of $0 is in a diffferent category than one with an EFC of $20,000. Admissions factors between the two being relatively equal, a need aware college will be more likely to take the student with the EFC of $20,000 than the one with the EFC of $0. The college can get by giving the student with the EFC of $20,000 a small merit scholarship and loans. But, the "cost" of the student with an EFC of $0 is much higher to the institution.
Unfortunately, only a handful of colleges are openly need-aware. To my knowledge, all of the colleges who are openly need-aware, do promise to meet the full demonstrated need of those they do admit.
I personally think that is MUCH fairer than pretending to be "need-blind" and then gapping students after you admit them, hoping they'll find a way to come up with the missing amount.
I tell my students with substantial need not to be afraid of openly need-aware schools that promise to meet full demonstrated need. It's the ones who tell kids "we don't consider your need" but then give crappy financial aid packages that concern me more.
Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 07:16 pm by CarolynLawrence
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rhumbob
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 20th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 66 |
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 03:18 am |
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I can chime in on the OPs question. D is just finishing her first year at Hope College in Holland MI. We are from Northern CA and have no connection to the midwest. The vast majority of students at Hope are from the region. The campus is lively and the majority stay on campus on weekends. This was our concern as well...didn't want D alone every weekend.
It helps that the college always has a lot to do during down time. I agree with JDAD about the value of the overnight visit. It cemented the deal for D and it really is the right place for her. Hope is just down the road (relatively) from Kalamazoo. I encourage you to check it out if you go to the region for a visit. Now that D is there it looks like there will be 2 or 3 other kids from our neck of the woods heading to Hope.
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jocelynDAD
Member
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 03:45 am |
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Carolyn:
I know you are aware that outside of the Federal programs, there is simply no mandated obligation for any Private College/University to give grant $$$ to anyone.
SInce it is totally within the College/University discretion as to if and how much FAid they offer to anyone, it is patently clear that the Admissions process can operate freely and after issuing acceptances, the FA personnel can offer $0 to a full ride.
Therefore, whether a student is applying for FA or not does not creat any obligation on the part of any college/university.
I am certain, without specific examples, that some C/U might articulate a specific policy re: Need based applications, BUT they don't have to do anything that the C/U does not want to do.
As you have stated on a number of occasions, it is a source of frustration to you (and many others) when a C/U accepts a student whose FA needs are significant and the FA package comes filled with loans and limited or no grant $$$.
Clear this is a method of pretending to accept a high need candidate and yet reject him/her in effect because of the high loan barrier that has been placed on that student.
Since it is totally in the Private C/U control, the mere fact of checking a box re: FA in no manner, shape or form obligates the C/U to offer a reasonable FA package.
Further, as you know, in many cases, the use of Merit Scholarships by Private C/U is a ploy to attract students regardless of whether they requested FA or not. I imagine in many cases students not needing FA are offered Merit Scholarships and need based FA students are offered heavy loans in a sham to 'meet' their EFC, both by the same C/U.
The 'Urban Legend' tag is to emphasis to new parents/students to this 'game' that while the cards are stacked against them, there is no magic formula pro or con or secret insider methods to 'beat the game'.
IMO, going straightout to place your family with the best financial package available can best be achieved by leaving all options open, therefore check the box even if you are convinced that no need exists as no one can accurately predict the future.
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CardinalFang
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 17th, 2008 |
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 04:26 am |
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But, JDad, equally if you are a student who just doesn't need the money, at all, then you have a potential advantage by checking the box. Because the colleges you apply to might be need-aware, and you *might* be one of those last few acceptances where that makes a difference.
So let's say Fang Jr applies to Macalester, which acknowledges it is need-aware. Suppose Macalester has decided on 95% of its acceptances, and Fang Jr is not among them. But, oops, all the money is gone, no more money for aid. Now the admissions committee is deciding on those last few acceptances. Fang Jr's name comes up: "Hey, what about that homeschooled goalie from California?" They would be deciding between him, and the violinist from Ann Arbor, but, too bad for her, she needs aid, and he doesn't. They could admit the violinist and grant her no aid even though she needs it, but they decide that instead of that underhanded ploy, Fang Jr is IN!
And that is why Fang Jr will check the box. Because it might help.
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outwest
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| Joined: | Sun Mar 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | CA |
| Posts: | 595 |
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 05:23 pm |
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There have been two years where my middle D is the only one in college (older sister graduated and younger sis not yet going). We don't qualify for aid with just one in college, but we still filled out the fafsa because we wanted the option of an unsubsidized stafford. That came in handy when her computer was stolen because she was neglectful at her large public university. Her Dad and I felt that although it wasn't her 'fault' that someone stole it, it was her responsibility for not being more diligent in caring for it. We had bought her a laptop lock that she chose not to bother using. She was able to tap that loan and buy herself a new computer. I suppose many parents would have taken sympathy upon her and just bought another one, but we felt she needed to take some responsibility for it.
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CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 11:57 pm |
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JD, I agree that colleges are under no obligation to give institutional grants to any student. And, of course, I've seen plenty of financial aid packages that technically appear to meet "full demonstrated need" based on the college's definition of the family EFC but upon closer inspection really "meet full need" with an unrealistic combination of loans and work study.
I also think we have very similar rules of thumb. If you need financial aid, then you should apply for it. Any very slight edge that might be gained in admissions for not asking for help will be negated by the fact that you can't afford to attend once you get in.
On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to consider other possible back up plans for a potential change of circumstances in addition to financial aid. Last edited on Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:10 am by CarolynLawrence
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