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outwest
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 05:32 am |
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My sister called a couple days ago from Europe five minutes after getting her son's SAT scores. He took them in January. He is a Junior. She was so excited she could hardly spit them out:
CR 800
M 790
W 790
2380! I knew the kid was brilliant, but darn! I am so proud of him. He is such a nice person, too.
background:
He has spent his life as the son of US Diplomats attending American International Schools abroad in multiple countries, although for the last five he has been in three dfferent countries all in Europe. He is a US citizen. His grades are stellar and translate to a 4.0 or more. He is in the IB program at his high school right now. He is on a math team that competes regularly. He reads constantly, but his real love is Physics. He will be taking three SAT2s in June. He is worried he doesn't have any great extracurriculars except for skiing and the scholastic clubs. I reminded him that not many American kids have grown up like he has.
He told me on the phone he wants a small college with 2,000 people or less. He also wants a good Physics department, but he'd like to take other subjects, too. He has written off both MIT and Cal Tech for being too big, too competitive and too one sided.
I suggested he look at:
Carleton
Williams
and Harvey Mudd (he already has toured and likes it a lot plus he will be near some family)
I suggested the Ivy's, including Princeton since it is well known for math and physics plus has strong literature. He said, "No Ivy league; that isn't me," so that nixes those.
Any suggestions for:
No Ivy league
Small (less then 2,000 students)
High octane: Smart students
A place that teaches you to think: He is way ahead in knowledge and rote, but I question whether he has been taught creativity.
A friendly, welcoming student body. He is nervous about school in the US (he has never been).
Excellent Physics program and strong English (loves literature).
Thanks for any suggestions! East coast schools are good because he can fly "home" easily. West Coast schools are good because there is other family here, but he is used to living all kinds of places. He isn't used to being away from his family.
Last edited on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 06:20 am by outwest
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Chedva
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 12:38 pm |
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Union College, Schenectady, NY
Brandeis University, Waltham, MA (just outside of Boston - easy access)
Amherst College, Amherst, MA (in the Berkshires - 5 College Consortium with UMass Amherst, Smith, Mt. Holyoke and Hampshire - and yes, males can take classes at Smith & Mt. Holyoke)
Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA (just outside of Philly - easy access)
Slightly larger schools, but still small:
University of Rochester, Rochester, NY - 4000 undergrads (excellent physics department and, if he's interested in it, the top optics program in the country - Kodak, Bausch & Lomb & Xerox are headquarted in Rochester)
Tufts University, Waltham, MA - 5000 undergrads (just outside of Boston - easy access)
Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD - 4500 undergrads (has the Applied Physics Laboratory)
He sounds like an amazing kid! Good luck to him!
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mackinaw
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 01:25 pm |
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OW, on the West Coast, best options are Caltech, Harvey Mudd, and Reed.
In East, given his preference for small schools, I would put Swarthmore and Williams before any others. MIT is not as 'one-sided' as Caltech, it's larger, with serious programs in economics, political science, and linguistics as well as science and engineering; and it's in Cambridge, MA, with a mass of other colleges and universities -- but it's also a lot bigger than Caltech. (Hey, I like Caltech--my brother attended (undergrad and grad in physics), my uncle attended and taught there (geology, geophysics). He should at least take a look. Undergrad student body is actually quite small, perhaps 25% the size of MIT's.)
In Midwest, I think Carleton is a good choice but so are Grinnell, Oberlin, and UChicago (which is very strong in physics and accessible by air to everwhere; it's larger than he may want -- with about 5000 undergrads -- but has the kind of program he'd probably thrive in -- he should look at it before prejudging).
Last edited on Thu Feb 28th, 2008 05:16 pm by mackinaw
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 02:55 pm |
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There is a misconception that schools with many students are too large. It's not the size of the school but the size of his peer group that should be important. Some of the largest schools have very close departments or living communities that can make a large school much smaller. University of California at San Diego divides their school into smaller communities. Someone with more experience will be able to explain it better than I can.
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Alumother
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 03:04 pm |
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Not to be a cheerleader for my alma mater and D's school or anything, but it's also true that Princeton feels like a small school in many ways. The lack of professional schools makes a big difference. The campus with very few auto-bearing roads going through it makes a difference. The residential colleges make a difference. The eating clubs, believe it or not, make a difference. The focus on undergraduates in the departments makes a difference. And you really can't do much better for physics.
And, the student body is wildly friendly. Princeton has an earnest culture, all those green lawns and the slightly warmer weather does lead to friendliness. Just a thought, if your nephew has never been to an Ivy League school, he might find out that his notions would evolve. Especially for a kid who has never left home and worries about competition, large size, if I read between the lines he could use some nurturing in his college environment. And Princeton, believe it or not, does a lot of that.
Last edited on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 03:05 pm by Alumother
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warblers
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 04:00 pm |
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Davidson sounds like a good fit. The physics program is awesome, and English is arguably Davidson's strongest program. The student body is very warm (as is the weather!) and friendly, and it stresses extracurricular activities; athletics (esp. basketball and water sports), music, theater, and community service are popular. Davidson has a very strong honor code- among other benefits, it allows students to make use of free bicycles around campus and to take exams on their own time! Charlotte has a pretty good airport; I've made several international flights from there. He'd have a great shot at merit aid, and Davidson is loan-free.
Among smaller universities, Rice is an obvious choice (~3000 students). Lawrence U, Pomona, Wesleyan, William & Mary (too big?), Franklin & Marshall, Bowdoin, Rhodes, Haverford, Tufts (surprisingly well-known for astronomy), and Whitman are a few more...not sure how easy it is to get to/from these.Last edited on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 04:04 pm by warblers
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mackinaw
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 04:39 pm |
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OW: You might want to read, and refer to your sister and nephew, this article from Physics Today: "Why Many Undergraduate Physics Programs Are Good but Few Are Great."
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-56/iss-9/p38.html
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 05:30 pm |
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I'd also suggest reading the article titled "Does it matter where I go to college" on the American Institute of Physics website. It discusses the differences in outcomes from various sizes of colleges:
http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/undergradtrends.html
The American Association of Physics Teachers' National Task Force on Undergraduate Physics has issued a large evaluation of undergraduate physics programs that is helpful in comparing various schools because it provides a framework of things to look for and questions to ask. The report includes case studies of about 15 undergraduate physics programs at various schools. (Use the link "Site visit case study reports" to go directly to the case studies from the main site)
http://www.aapt.org/projects/ntfup.cfm
In addition to the liberal arts colleges you've already suggested, I'd suggest: Amherst, Reed (only college nuclear reactor run by undergrads) Oberlin, Grinnell, Haverford, Middlebury, Pomona, Hamilton, and Swarthmore.
Some safer bets with merit money and good physics programs: Whitman, Lawrence U, Trinity U (TX), Occidental, Rhodes.
Since he liked Harvey Mudd, I'd also suggest he look at Cal Tech, Rose Hulman, and RPI.
But I agree that he shouldn't rule out some slightly larger schools. I'd start with MIT.
I'd also take a look at Princeton, Dartmouth, Rice, Stanford, U of Rochester, Brown, Brandeis, Washington U, and Vanderbilt for physics. All are smaller universities with strong physics programs.
Last edited on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 05:35 pm by CarolynLawrence
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mackinaw
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 05:55 pm |
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OW: You might also want to look at the "PhD" productivity numbers for various institutions and majors. This is a partial list, but somewhere there's a longer one. In my view, this kind of list tells you something about the intellectual climate on a campus, and perhaps also for specific academic areas. IMO, it's relevant to the academically inclined student whether or not they're expecting some day to get an advanced degree.
http://web.reed.edu/ir/phd.html
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lfm
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 02:13 am |
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Caltech is small (less than 1000 undergrads). They also foster a spirit of cooperation - problem sets may be done in a group, people love to help out, etc. It is definitely one sided though, but within that one sided population, there are quite a lot of diverse interests and talents.
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outwest
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 04:00 am |
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You guys are great! Fantastic ideas. I am forwarding all the suggestions to him (and the terrific articles, too). I didn't even think of Reed, but that is a great suggestion. So is Swarthmore, University of Chicago and Davidson. Amherst is very near his Dad's parents, actually. I still think Princeton would be a good fit. Maybe I can get him to check it out more. He visited Cal Tech last winter when he was here for the holidays (along with Harvey Mudd and a drive up to Stanford) and MIT last summer when he went to visit family in Mass. He didn't care for MIT or Cal Tech, but loved the atmosphere at Harvey Mudd. I would love to have him here in Claremont near me, but I think he may get bored in this 'burb. I'll let you guys know what he thinks.
Last edited on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 04:05 am by outwest
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bumpyroad
Member
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 06:35 am |
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| I'll put in another plug for Reed - they have the only student run nuclear reactor in the country, so physics has a certain mystique on campus as far as I can tell. Because it's a local school my D wasn't interested until she went on a field trip and saw the rubber ducky floating on top of the reactor pool.
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Shennie
Member
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 07:07 pm |
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| My first thought was Reed also.
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HImom
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 07:27 pm |
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This may sound very odd, but have him also consider USoCal. I know it's "huge" in total # of students but if he's interested in engineering, they only have 200 in the freshman engineering program every year & the engineering school gets to know one another quite well. My son is very happy there in his 4th semester. There are lots of students there from all over the world and many excellent professors. Last year, son's room mate was an English major; this year he's living with others.
Rice in Texas is also very well-regarded and a smaller school.
Anyway, congrats to this very talented young man. Sounds like he has a lot of options to consider, which is always fun (even if a bit confusing).
HImom
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 07:56 pm |
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Mac provided the Reed link to this data, but just FYI, I have compiled stats for Physics Ph.D.'s earned in 1996-2005 sorted by the baccalaureate school of the degree earner. The number you see is physics doctorates/1000 graduates.
California Institute of Technology 66.1
Harvey Mudd College 50.7
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 18.1
Reed College 13.2
University of Chicago 9.9
Rice University 8.3
Carleton College 8.2
Princeton University 7.9
New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 7.8
Stevens Institute of Technology 6.8
Harvard University 6.7
Case Western Reserve University 6.3
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 6.3
Colorado School of Mines 6.1
Swarthmore College 5.4
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 5.4
Goshen College 5.4
Lawrence University 5.3
University of Rochester 5.1
Grinnell College 5.0
I believe most of these have been mentioned in the above suggestions.
Last edited on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 08:01 pm by Descartes
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Wendy (wjb)
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 08:32 pm |
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| Outwest: I realize that your nephew is not an international, but given that he has spent most (all?) of his school years living outside the U.S. and is somewhat nervous about attending college here, he may want to take a look at the percentage of the student body that is international at the schools he's evaluating. He may find that he is most comfortable having a community of peers who have lived abroad. The U.S. News website (premium edition) has info on the percentages of first-year students and entire student body who are international for every college. Last edited on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 08:34 pm by Wendy (wjb)
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 03:02 am |
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| I agree with Wendy. I've worked with several students who are American citizens but grew up overseas, and they all tended to feel more comfortable at colleges where there was a larger international population. So, Wendy's point is well taken.
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outwest
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Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 04:34 am |
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Excellent point, Wendy. Yes, he is nervous about attending school in the US. He has only gone to International Schools since 3rd grade. A couple years ago I thought about sending my youngest to live with my sister for a year so she could attend the International school for a year. That was until I realized that the US government pays for her kids to go to them, but I would have to pay tens of thousands for my D to go! It's just as well, they grow up soon enough.
International schools have students from multiple countries at them, not just Americans. They really are incredibly good schools. Just in case anyone is interested in checking out International Schools for fun, click on a country and then you can click on the websites of the different schools. These are almost all accredited by the US. All are English and most are set up as American International schools.
http://princeton.iss.edu/displaydirectory/displaycountries.asp
Last edited on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 05:19 am by outwest
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HImom
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Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 05:15 am |
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| USoCal has one of the largest percentages of international students, especially in the school of engineering. He might find that attractive.
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outwest
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Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 05:22 am |
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Maybe I should drag him over there this summer. He and his sister want to come get their drivers licenses (or at least permits) over the summer. You can't get a license until 18 in Europe. 
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