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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 08:17 pm |
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Consolation,
Since your son has some LAC's on his list, one school you might want to take a look at, if you haven't already, is Grinnell. It is a top notch school, and they are not only generous with merit money for kids in your son's stats range, but eager to recruit for geographic and economic diversity. I think they would be very interested in your son.
When my son and I visited last month, we were both very impressed with Grinnell. They have, as you know, the largest endowment of any LAC (larger than some top universities as well), and it shows in almost every aspect of the school. The campus is beautiful and well-maintained, and all of the facilities are superb. Their endowment also lets them attract excellent faculty and, while academics are excellent across the board, their philosophy, social sciences, and science programs are the equivalent of any top school. Really, it's a gem of a place.
Grinnell is not an easy admit, but I'd feel comfortable calling it a very strong match for your son, and, as I said, probably a good bet for merit money to boot. Iowa may be a hard sell for your son, but Grinnell attracts very, very qualified and intellectually driven students. A nice plus is that it is a truly geographically diverse school as well, so the "Iowa" part is not really a factor in the intellectual feel of Grinnell. I think in some ways, from what you have said about your son, it would be a better fit for him than Kenyon.
Just a thought.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 08:34 pm |
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Consolation, this is an important topic, so I am pulling it out into a separate post.
In your last thread, you expressed fears about student debt. Have you and your son discussed this and arrived at a borrowing number that you both would feel comfortable with?
The reason I am bringing this up is that, with very, very few exceptions, most need-based financial aid packages are going to include at least some student loans. According to the College Board, the average amount of debt of graduating college students is around $19,300. Of course, when you're talking averages, that means some students will graduate with more, some with less.
If you and your son haven't already done so, I would suggest that you get the "average" numbers for student debt at every college he's considering, and I'd do so NOW. If your son is adverse to debt, then he needs to have at least a ballpark figure upfront, in the list planning stage, so he can realistically assess his list. I would suggest that you ask your son to do this research himself (most colleges will tell you the average amount of debt upon graduation if you ask, but websites like Princeton Review and US News Online College also have this information). He needs to do this himself so he is involved with the process.
It is too late to think about this in April -- and, trust me, every year, I have parents and students contacting me upset with the loans in their FA package. If keeping student debt under control is key, you and your son need to think about this NOW.
However, I want to bring up another very important point and that is that some reasonable student debt is not a bad thing at all. It is, after all, an investment in your education and earning potential over the course of your career. Of course, the question of what is "reasonable" will vary for each student and family, depending on many factors.
But, don't assume that debt is automatically bad, or that a certain amount will be impossible to repay. Crunch some numbers using different scenarios based on the "average" debt of the various schools to see how varying amounts of debt may be managable. Again, this is something I would do WITH your son, so he gets an idea NOW of what may lie ahead, and can still make additions to his list to reflect his feelings/goals.
Two excellent resources for doing this are:
http://www.mapping-your-future.org/apps/debtwizard/ Debt Wizard at Mapping Your Future
and
http://www.csumentor.edu/FinAid/SLOPE/ The SLOPE Calculator, available through the Cal State System website (but can be used for any school)
Both sites will let you play around with repayment numbers, and the Slope Calculator will also let you look at debt ratio's for salaries of various careers. The FinAid site and the College Board sites also have many useful tools.
I am sure you have already talked about financial issues with your son, but I think both of you need to take a very close look at some specifics before finalizing his list, especially if you are both adverse to student loans -- because, as I said, he will end up with at least SOME student loans at almost every college in the country.
(PS -- another school to consider, although not a safety either, is Davidson in NC. They have recently eliminated loans from all FA packages.)
Last edited on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 08:36 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Consolation
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 09:58 pm |
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Re Grinnell: I've been dismissing it because of its location being a hard sell, but a friend whose daughter is there and who highly recommends it gave me pause when she said that it is only 3 hours drive from Minneapolis. (At least I think that's what she meant. Although I have lived in Chicago, I confess that I sometimes suffer from the classic East-Coaster inability to fully grasp the geography of the midwest!  ) That made it seem much less like the back of beyond. I'm encouraged that your son liked it so much, as a fellow CTYer.
Re loans: I completely agree that *some* degree of indebtedness is a worthwhile investment in one's education. The question is really how much is too much, especially when one anticipates further loans at the graduate level. Coincidentally, I actually started looking at the "average indebtedness" figures earlier today at the College Board site. Thanks for the tools you suggest. I will sit down with him and take a look. (Unfortunately, my H is adamantly opposed to mentioning financial considerations to my S, possibly because his parents mentioned virtually nothing else, leading him to make some poor choices that resulted in a less than ideal multi-school college experience. Ironically, my H is a financial analyst.)
Last edited on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 09:59 pm by Consolation
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John5616
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 10:19 pm |
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Grinnell, just a little east of Des Moines, is more like 4 to 4 1/2 hours south of Minneapolis.
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Consolation
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 11:14 pm |
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John5616 wrote: Grinnell, just a little east of Des Moines, is more like 4 to 4 1/2 hours south of Minneapolis.
Maybe she drives REALLY fast! 
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 11:19 pm |
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John is right - it took me exactly four hours to drive from Grinnell to Carleton, and it's another 35 minutes or so to Minneapolis from there. It's about 200 or so miles if I recall. I tend to have a pretty heavy foot on the gas peddle, too. However, it's less than an hour from Grinnell to Des Moines, which is a nice city. Iowa City, home of the U of Iowa, which has a college town feel something like Madison Wisconsin or Ann Arbor, is about an hour in the other direction. All in all, I don't think Grinnell is any more isolated than Williams or Middlebury.
The town of Grinnell revolves around the college. It's a cute little town, much nicer than many I've seen in the midwest. The college runs shuttles to and from Des Moines airport. My son was impressed with how much there is to do on campus - they have a large budget for student activities and use it well, bringing a steady flow of concerts, speakers, special events, and other things to campus. I think it would be pretty hard to get bored there.
Academically, my son liked what he saw and heard during our visit. His admissions interviewer was actually a Grinnell philosophy grad, and they had a great discussion about philosophy. My son also talked with several other current students (we visited on a campus visit day) and felt that they were smart and just quirky enough.
I wouldn't let its distance from Chicago or Minneapolis rule it out. It's a great school, and, as I said, I think it would be a good fit for your son from what you've mentioned.
Last edited on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 11:21 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Alumother
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 03:27 pm |
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Consolation, the thing to remember about a safety school is that it is almost certain to have something that makes it not perfect. Think about it. If it didn't have something that made it not perfect, then more kids would want to go to school there. And if more kids wanted to go to school there, it wouldn't be a safety.
Of course, my analysis only works if you assume that all colleges are working towards attracting the most selectable students, which isn't true. But I am sure that Grinnell wants to be able to get the Swarthmore students. Unfortunately, Grinnell is in Iowa and the nearest city is Des Moines. Swarthmore is in Pennsylvania, and the nearest city is Philadelphia. Hence, for most, Swarthmore is more attractive. Hence, for your boy, Grinnell is a solid match.
The thing to look for in a safety is the unique aspect it has that makes it better for your kid than for the average kid with his profile. If it's philosophy, for example, and Grinnell has a great department. Or the endowment, for example, that means fabulous resources. But if you expect to find your safety to be as perfect as your reaches, and you are a highly selectable student and want that kind of academic environment, IMO, it's not a terribly realistic approach.
Personally, I think your son will likely be accepted at one or more of his super-reaches. The safety is not apt, although it's possible for some, to be as desirable as the reaches - for highly academically succesful kids. But it is supposed to be a place where the kid flourish and grow and find friends and get a great education.
Does this make sense, what I'm saying?
Last edited on Mon Sep 10th, 2007 03:28 pm by Alumother
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Consolation
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 04:22 pm |
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Alumother wrote:
Personally, I think your son will likely be accepted at one or more of his super-reaches. The safety is not apt, although it's possible for some, to be as desirable as the reaches - for highly academically succesful kids. But it is supposed to be a place where the kid flourish and grow and find friends and get a great education.
Does this make sense, what I'm saying?
Absolutely. (And I certainly hope that your prediction is correct!)
The problem is not convincing ME, the problem is interesting HIM in a couple of schools that are not just matches, but true safeties.
Unless we are willing to committ saftey fraud--love that phrase!--he has to be genuinely happy about the idea of going to them. That's the hard part, so far, with anything I have been able to propose as a true safety, rather than a solid match.
Coincidentally, I read a thread on that other board yesterday in which a lot of very high-statted kids were bemoaning the fact that they had been wait-listed at Carleton, where they thought they were safe. Which of course only increased my anxiety. Which I am concealing from him.
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outwest
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 04:41 pm |
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Consolation, What you need to do is have someone else talk to him about safeties, both financial and academic. You are his parent and to most seniors in high school the parent grows suspect. You have to remember the developmental period in life of an older teen/young adult. This is when they are pulling away and exerting their independence. Many immediately balk at anything a parent suggests, whether it be something benign like buying a pair of pants or something as important as this. It is just as hard for them because they know they are still dependent on you, but they don't want to be. It is a confusing and trying time for everyone, but it doesn't have to get really ugly if you let him run the show with few interferences. He needs to make the decisions about his safeties, not you. The trouble is this is very important. He still has time and if he doesn't get in to the EA school with the money he needs, he will be able to rethink things (although not too much time).
Don't say a thing to him about colleges for two weeks. That will allow him to relax about it. Then go to his guidance counselor and have a chat about your concerns. Ask the counselor to talk to him about both financial and academic safeties. If the guidance counselor isn't a good choice, try to talk to a favorite teacher about helping you out. Maybe a favorite Uncle or neighbor, even. You are not going to get too far with him. If he is like most late teens you are quickly becoming an alien in parents clothing. If you think about people you know who still have 20-somethings hanging around the house, you will understand why this is such a difficult, but necessary period in your relationship with him.
Back off and let someone ELSE handle it.
Last edited on Mon Sep 10th, 2007 04:52 pm by outwest
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Alumother
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 06:11 pm |
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outwest is probably giving you good advice to back off.
Another idea would be to disassociate the choice from his self-identity. When kids like him have been at the tippy-top all their life they start to refuse to imagine that they won't be accepted. They look at the chances and bet on the emotional probablility that they will be OK. So say it is 80% likely he will get into one of the schools on his list. Just tell him to choose a school for the 20% likelihood. So that if he wound up taking a gap year it wouldn't be because he has to. Tell him to imagine all the schools on his list were guaranteed to reject him but he had to choose somewhere. In other words, let him do this in the land of pretend, so he doesn't feel that choosing a safety somehow means he is less highly statted...
His safety is not a statement of who he is, other than to say he understands the laws of probablility and is hedging his bets. This iso hard for your son because he is in fact a serious intellectual. Philosophy is hard. It hurt my head in college. My brilliant brother had a dual major in Philosophy and Psychology at Harvard undergraduate. I still don't think he has recovered from the hallucinatory thinking that required....So finding a place where your son can do something else cool, like have an internship or whatever, doesn't solve the problem. He really wants intellectual academic exercise. He just has to understand that the faculty at the schools he currently refuses to consider are very very intelligent and would love to have him. And that there will be other kids there his equal in enough ways to make it valuable.
Off soap box now.
Last edited on Mon Sep 10th, 2007 06:17 pm by Alumother
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 06:13 pm |
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outwest wrote: Don't say a thing to him about colleges for two weeks. That will allow him to relax about it. Then go to his guidance counselor and have a chat about your concerns. Ask the counselor to talk to him about both financial and academic safeties. If the guidance counselor isn't a good choice, try to talk to a favorite teacher about helping you out. Maybe a favorite Uncle or neighbor, even. You are not going to get too far with him. If he is like most late teens you are quickly becoming an alien in parents clothing. If you think about people you know who still have 20-somethings hanging around the house, you will understand why this is such a difficult, but necessary period in your relationship with him.
Back off and let someone ELSE handle it.
Excellent advice, Outwest. I know that some folks aren't fond of school counselors, but they really are the place to turn when you're talking to a wall. In fact, I just suggested to my son that he discuss the final details of HIS list with his counselor for just this reason: he needs to hear from someone else what is what because, let's face it, hearing it from Mom is just not going to have the same impact.
Since your husband is resistant to discussing the financial side of things with your son, I'd suggest you also let the guidance counselor begin that discussion as well. Level with the counselor about your financial constraints and your concern with student loans, and ask her to explain the facts (in broad terms, of course - no need to give her the personal details). She can then suggest that your son approach you and your husband to get more information and insights.
I do not think it is wise to give a false impression that money is no object when clearly it is -- your son NEEDS to know where you and your husband stand. We all want to give our kids free reign financially but very few families can realistically do that. Even though your husband might not want to, it will be more fair to your son if you lay the cards on the table now instead of after your son has gotten into a few "dream schools" and the FA isn't what you'd expected.
So, take Outwest's excellent advice: Make an appointment with the school counselor and explain your fears and concerns. Let her broach all of this with your son, and then keep talking at home as well.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 06:26 pm |
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Alumother's post was also very excellent. I thought it might also be helpful to post an article about Grinnell that appeared in the Chronicle of Higher Education - you might want to pass this along to your son, Consolation. And, do hang in there - remember, there is still PLENTY of time!
Grinnell, now the nation's richest liberal-arts colleges, tries to use its wealth to benefit its students
By GOLDIE BLUMENSTYK
Grinnell, Iowa
In its 160-year history, Grinnell College has been rich and it has been strapped. As the many generously paid professors and well-subsidized students here today will readily tell you, being rich is better.
With an endowment that has grown from about $44-million in 1980 to about $1.4-billion today, Grinnell is the wealthiest liberal-arts college in the country and has the 35th-largest endowment over all.
For its 1,500 students, Grinnell's prosperity means paid summer research projects with professors on the campus, college-financed internships off the campus, and hands-on classroom experience in first-class facilities where equipment and supplies — whether expensive reagents for an introductory chemistry course or ink in the printmaking studio — are never in short supply.
"Especially if you are a science major," says Priya Malik, a senior from Delhi, India, "you definitely are under the impression that you are going to a rich college."
The signs and sounds of the college's affluence are unmistakable on this immaculately tended 120-acre campus, with its mix of low-slung Tudor residence halls, turreted academic buildings, and Modernist architecture.
At the campus's northern edge is the rumble of heavy equipment at the side-by-side construction sites of a new Cesar Pelli-designed student center and an expansion of the science building. And at the south are the haunting tones of the Javanese iron gamelan in the college's world-music collection, housed in the elegant arts complex. (This arts complex, replete with a gallery and a recording studio, was also designed by the Pelli firm and opened in 1999.)
The $43-million science addition and the $42-million student center, which will feature a soaring glass wall and several styles of brick, stone, and handmade tile, are part of a $163-million building boom that began in 2000. It has also included a dormitory, a fitness center, and an angular glass, steel, and limestone building for the admissions and financial-aid offices.
Money from the endowment paid for most of it, except for about $50-million from gifts.
Grinnell is among the lucky few colleges in the country that rarely, if ever, worry about meeting enrollment targets and instead have the luxury of focusing on how best to deploy their ever-increasing endowments to attract the most desirable students. But even as such colleges have been growing richer, the students who get to enjoy their high-tech science centers, palatial fitness complexes, and intimate classes are still mostly from wealthy and middle-class families.
Grinnell is one of a diminishing number of colleges that still meet the full financial need of all American students, its officials note, although in some cases, some of that aid comes through low-interest loans from the college or a required campus job.
And Grinnell's president has begun hinting that it, too, may be preparing a big move to make the college more affordable to needy students, even as it moves aggressively over the next few yeas to increase tuition.
Not Thinking 'Rich'
Grinnell's striking buildings by celebrity architects are only the most visible signs of the college's prosperity. Grinnell provides need-based financial aid to 65 percent of its students and merit scholarships to an additional 25 percent, at a total cost of nearly $21-million this year (nearly 30 percent of its overall budget). For faculty members, it offers not only nationally competitive salaries but also a semester of paid leave to new professors after their third year of teaching, to help them keep abreast of their fields before they come up for tenure review.
The college even sponsors its own Peace Corps-style program, Grinnell Corps, which sends as many as 15 graduating seniors overseas for a year to teach English in places like Nanjing, in China, and Lesotho.
"The reason we can do it is because of the endowment," says Russell K. Osgood, Grinnell's president. The college depends on its endowment for nearly half of its $69-million annual budget, an unusually high proportion even for a college with a big endowment.
But Mr. Osgood, who assumed the post in 1998, says wealth also brings challenges. "If you say, 'We're a rich college,' you'll be undisciplined" about finances. The colleges' spending is focused, he says, on trying to ensure that all students can take part in the college's offerings, no matter their income, and to overcome some of the limitations of Grinnell's location "in a little town in Iowa."
He adds, "We don't sit around and think, How can we rain money down on our students?"
Despite the spending here on programs and facilities, Grinnell does have an unassuming air. Students seem serious about their studies, few drive flashy cars, and for most last month's spring break seemed to involve a trip home, a visit with friends, or a community-service project, rather than a fling in Cancún. But Grinnell's wealth comes into play here, too: Students participating in many of the "alternative spring break" projects receive a subsidy from the college.
Warren Buffett and Joseph Who?
The story of Grinnell's endowment growth begins with Joseph F. Rosenfield, Class of 1925. A college trustee from 1941 until his death in 2000, Mr. Rosenfield was a department-store executive turned investor who occasionally bailed out the college when it was unable to pay its bills and who, along with his friend Warren E. Buffett, helped to guide Grinnell's investment miracle. (Mr. Buffett, the storied investor, was active on the board from 1968 until 1987.)
Thanks to Mr. Rosenfield — once described by Money magazine as "the best investor you've never heard of" — Grinnell was an early investor in a semiconductor company founded by another alumnus, Robert N. Noyce, that would later become Intel. Grinnell also made a splash in 1976 when, at Mr. Buffett's suggestion, it acquired a commercial television station in Dayton, Ohio, for about $13-million — an unusual investment for a college, particularly at that time — and then sold it, five years later, for $49-million.
Since 1980 the college has had only one fiscal year, 2000, when investment returns declined, and only six other years in which its returns fell below 10 percent. In 15 different years, it had returns of more than 15 percent, and in 12 of those years, its returns exceeded 20 percent.
Grinnell reveals few details about its idiosyncratic approach to investing. David S. Clay, the college's treasurer, does say that its endowment is probably far less diversified than other colleges' and far less rigid about asset allocation. He says the institution has succeeded by taking a long-term view, looking for opportunities at low prices, and being willing to allocate big stakes when it found them. Two of its most successful investments have been Freddie Mac and the Sequoia Fund.
Mark Montgomery, a professor of economics, says the college's investment success is a curse as well as a blessing. "There's almost a cult of the endowment at Grinnell," he says, and for all of the college's success, "we have not taken advantage of our wealth to really lower the burden on our students."
Eli Zigas, a senior from Washington, D.C., says Grinnell could be a small part of the solution to the growing economic divide in the country. Today only 11.5 percent of Grinnell students come from families with incomes that would qualify them for Pell Grants.
With its endowment, Grinnell "could make an enormous statement," say Mr. Zigas, a student leader with a deeper-than-typical understanding of the college's finances. On a recent evening, over pizza in the snack bar of the college's 1960s-vintage student center, he shared his affection for what the college offers and his frustration for what it doesn't: "We should and can be different," he says, "because we have the cushion."
It is a view that Mr. Montgomery and many of his colleagues share. Still, as the economics professor readily acknowledges, the endowment has transformed Grinnell, "and our lives are all the better for that."
The Good Life
Grinnell professors receive not only generous leaves and salaries that match those at colleges where the cost of living is lot higher, but also, typically, stipends to attend at least one academic conference a year. Usually, there is enough left over to bring along a few students.
Faculty members teach in first-rate facilities like the stone-and-glass Bucksbaum Center for the Arts, which anchors the southern tip of this rectangular campus. There, in one wing, students study world music in a two-story room festooned with exotic instruments hanging like tools in a garage. In another, participants in a physics class called "Bridges, Towers, and Skyscrapers" come to examine the designs of famous Swiss architects now on display in the sleek, light-filled gallery. The gallery routinely draws a half-dozen visiting exhibits each year, in addition to shows by students and faculty members.
Neither does Grinnell skimp at the opposite end of the campus, in the Robert N. Noyce Science Center. Introductory-science courses require students to work in small teams in hands-on experiments, and they do so with some of the most modern laboratory benches, electronic microscopes, and measuring instruments available.
"I have everything I need, and I'm not in a cheap field," says Leslie Gregg-Jolly, an associate professor of biology, who on a recent March day was supervising freshmen in the lab as they fertilized sea urchins.
Ms. Gregg-Jolly also relishes working with the high-caliber students here, who can handle the rigors of the curriculum. "Students in my molecular lab are doing work that would lead to publication," she says.
And Grinnell's academic program is about to expand. As part of a strategic plan adopted a year ago, the college will add 12 new full-time faculty positions over the next five years in several new interdisciplinary fields.
Learning Off the Grid
The emphasis on hands-on experiences, through research programs and internships, is another hallmark of the undergraduate experience made possible by the endowment. Students working on research projects are paid as much as $3,200 a semester; those in internships receive up to $2,400. Altogether, about 250 students take part in the programs each year, at an overall cost of $750,000.
The idea is "to do something they can't do within our curriculum and that they couldn't do without the money," says Steve Langerud, associate dean for experiential education, who oversees the internships. Students have worked in rare-book stores in England, studied HIV in Zambia, and apprenticed with a sports agent in Oklahoma, he says. "We really push them to things that are off the grid."
The endowment also makes possible a program that brings nationally and internationally known speakers to the campus for short symposia on major issues in human rights and public affairs. This semester the topic was the genocide in the Darfur region of Sudan, and speakers included Nicholas D. Kristof, a columnist for The New York Times. Later this spring, another symposium will focus on the avian flu.
Alexey Hartlieb-Shea, a senior from Burlington, Vt., who takes in his share of the visitors' talks, as well as exhibits in the art gallery, says those are the kinds of extras he loves most at Grinnell. "I can't imagine I could get a better education anywhere else," he says.
'Moving Boldly'
Grinnell will continue to take steps to become more racially and economically diverse, say Mr. Osgood and James Sumner, dean of admission and financial aid. About 67 percent of the students are white. Three years ago the college began accepting students from inner-city high schools through a program run by the Posse Foundation, which helps colleges admit students in groups of about 10 and provides mentors for them. By next year, when Posse students will be enrolled in all four undergraduate classes, the program will cost Grinnell about $1.8-million, mostly for financial aid.
This month the college will also sponsor two "Grinnell on Our Dime" weekends, when it pays the travel costs for campus visits for admitted prospective freshmen who are the first generation of their families to go to college, are students of color, or are financially needy enough to qualify for Pell Grants. The college expects about 60 students.
Grinnell is also proud that its students with Pell Grants, many of whom came from high schools that don't offer top-tier preparation, graduate at essentially the same rate as the student body as a whole.
Mr. Osgood says the policies have helped to make Grinnell more diverse than its peers, even while he acknowledges that most of those colleges aren't all that diverse themselves. "If we had a lot of truly poor people, I guess I'd be a little more proud of it," the president concedes.
Nordahl L. Brue, chairman of the Board of Trustees, says Grinnell's spending and pricing policies have been well directed. To be a great liberal-arts college, "you have to have great facilities," he says. And those financially needy students who must borrow to pay for Grinnell still graduate carrying less debt, on average, than do graduates of Iowa's public colleges. (The average for Grinnell students is about $16,000; the University of Iowa about $17,000; and Iowa State University about $27,000.)
But Mr. Brue, who is probably better known as the founder of Bruegger's bagel chain, says he realizes Grinnell could soon have even more endowment earnings at its disposal because construction on the campus is winding down.
The college's leaders also recognize that other wealthy institutions, including Amherst College and Princeton and Stanford Universities, have recently begun making high-profile commitments to serve larger numbers of needy students by replacing loans with grants.
Mr. Osgood says that in the not-so-distant future, Grinnell might use the endowment to make "dramatic increases" in the amounts it provides needy students, probably in the form of forgivable loans from the college. The program, which is far from a done deal, would most likely be adopted in conjunction with Grinnell's first-ever major fund-raising campaign.
Mr. Brue says Grinnell trustees are open to new ideas. As much as they seek to protect the endowment for the benefit of the college, he insists that they also recognize the college's broader obligations. "Our job is to look at the horizon, not at the foreground," he says. "But I don't think that will keep us from moving boldly."
Last edited on Mon Sep 10th, 2007 06:27 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Consolation
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 06:48 pm |
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Thanks for the article, Carolyn. I've printed it out.
I think that getting the GC to talk to him about safeties is a good idea. Of course, his former GC--now the vice principal--to some extent created this problem by suggesting that Carlelton and the U of C would be safe bets for him.... that may have been a reflection of the fact that he himself has a PhD in Philosophy from Cambridge and is probably a bit prejudiced in My Son The Philosopher's favor. 
Believe it or not, I do succeed in concealing at least 95% of my anxiety from my son, mostly venting it here. (Thank you all! If we didn't have this forum, many of us would probably be driving our kids crazy.)
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outwest
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Posted: Tue Sep 11th, 2007 03:35 pm |
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I, also, do an amazing job of keeping my mouth shut with my D. I am glad we have this forum to vent on.
Grinnell is on my D's list. We are planning to visit in a few weeks.
Last edited on Tue Sep 11th, 2007 03:42 pm by outwest
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Wed Sep 12th, 2007 02:58 am |
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Consolation wrote:
Believe it or not, I do succeed in concealing at least 95% of my anxiety from my son, mostly venting it here. (Thank you all! If we didn't have this forum, many of us would probably be driving our kids crazy.)
Actually, I don't think you should be concealing your anxiety about his college list at all. Someone needs to get through to your son that things do not always work out as planned, in terms of admission, financial aid/affordability and the actual educational experience. I am quite concerned, frankly, to hear that you and your husband AREN'T putting your concerns about these issues on the table, especially if you feel his guidance counselor is giving him bum advice.
My son, who has similar stats to your son,who is also quite intellectual and interested in philosphy/economics/political science, knows he must have at least two safe bets in the mix. I insist on it. He has actually found at least four or five safe bet schools where he feels he would be intellectually challenged.
One thing that has helped my son is to talk with his CTY instructors and TAs about various schools and programs. They've assured him that challenging work in philosophy is occuring, and can be done, at many different places. They also suggested that he contact faculty at various schools directly to get a sense of the program and department. My son has found this very useful, and it has helped him define what he is looking for beyond the name on that will appear on his diploma. For him, he strongly prefers schools that will let him or require him to write some sort of senior thesis as he feels that is important to his personal intellectual goals. He also has a stong preference for small, conference style classes because, after talking to many people in philosophy, he feels that would best suit both his personal learning style and the study of philosophy. He's also talked with these people about what graduate schools look for in philosophy doctoral candidates and discovered that one of the keys will be specializing in a particular area of philosophy if he decides to go that route. So, you may want to encourage your son to contact his teachers from the philosophy courses he took at CTY. If he hasn't kept in touch with them like my son has, then suggest he talk with someone at your local public U about philosophy programs and to contact via email some of the faculty at the schools he's hemming and hawing about adding to his list to ask about their programs, what he should be looking for in a department, and how philosophy is taught at their schools. My son did this at the suggestion of one of his CTY TA's and found it very helpful in helping him pinpoint what he meant by "intellectual challenge." Since, like my son, your son apparently has many other interests besides philosophy, he should do the same for any areas that might potentially be majors.
Finally, when he visits schools, don't assume that a low admissions rate or high enrolled student stats automatically translate into "intellectual student body." My son has found that some of the most interesting and intellectually engaging students, faculty, and classroom discussions are NOT in "top" colleges and universities. They are, however, at schools that encourage students to think, debate, and question.
Again, these are the sorts of discussions you NEED to be having with your son. Don't hide your concerns, do encourage him to look deeper into what "intellectual atmosphere" really means to HIM.
Last edited on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 03:03 am by CarolynLawrence
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Alumother
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Posted: Wed Sep 12th, 2007 10:22 pm |
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Consolation - maybe the reason Caroline and I are so involved in this thread, well, me at least, is that your son does have some similarities to ours. Finding real safeties for these kids IS hard.
While my son has lower stats than yours, lower SATIIs, lower grades, (I will never forget the shock of the first A-) there is still there is the impulse to think hey, SATI ! Hard to give that up. But my son is not a traditional intellectual. He thinks he hates traditional intellectual discourse. Imagine with my dad the college professor...So the point is that when I looked for safeties for him, when I got a little more real about the demographics, I went with his interests - tropical, music, ethnic diversity. Those are his axes of happiness, or so I hope. For science kids, you can follow the science axis to either a large state school with a great graduate department, or a liberal arts college next to a medical school, etc. For kids who love cities, follow that axis to Boston University for example, or Fordham.....fabulous philosophical education to be found in walking down a city street.
For your son, if his real happiness is intellectual discussion, you have to look far enough down the selectivity axis that he can find it and still be virtually guaranteed admission. But that may mean either giving up the Northeast or giving up the small/midsize. Or philosophy proper although you might be able to find him the right place by looking for an usually respected religion program. Or medical ethics. Those are like philosophy.
Ask him the question. Does he want to be a philosopher? Or does he want to teach philosophy....Philosophers can study many things, think of Oliver Sachs if you will. Philosophy professors do kind of have to study philosophy LOL.
All I'm saying is that this doesn't have to be an exercise in stupidity and limitations. It can be an exercise in self-awareness and discovery, under the guise of "Finding a Safety..."
The other reason I keep posting is my experience with my daughter. Same general record, lower SATI, high SATII, better ECs. Told by the GC he "felt good about Harvard". Only safety we had on the list was UCSB, and match was Cal. Well, she was deferred from Harvard, Waistlisted finally, Waitlisted at Columbia where we had been told she was oh yeah, sure to get in. Accepted at the UCs but realized she really didn't want a big school. So we were down to the wire in a high stress environment until Princeton and Stanford accepted her. And their notifications came AFTER Harvard and Columbia. Not a fun few days.
Unecessary stress due to parental ignorance in building a list. I do not recommend it as a way to spend the admissions season of 2007-2008....
Last edited on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 10:30 pm by Alumother
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outwest
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Posted: Thu Sep 13th, 2007 01:39 am |
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Great post, Alum. The difference between Consolations son and your daughter is the money. When you throw that into the mix things get even more complicated.
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Consolation
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Posted: Sun Sep 30th, 2007 08:28 pm |
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I chatted briefly with the GC and requested her help in thinking of realistic safeties for him. She's going to think about it, and we will meet with her at some point in the not-too-distant future. (She definitely agreed that being in the top 25% stats-wise at schools that admit less than 25% does NOT equate to those schools being safeties! ) She also told me to be glad he isn't a girl. Things are even tougher for them these days.
He's now evincing some interest in Penn and Georgetown, having been to the Harvard/Penn/Georgetown/Duke/Stanford roadshow. And Dartmouth. Just what his list needed. 
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riviera
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Posted: Tue Oct 2nd, 2007 03:14 am |
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Consolation wrote: She also told me to be glad he isn't a girl. Things are even tougher for them these days.
The college navigator site: http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/ shows the Fall 2006 admission statistics by gender. I checked some of the colleges my son is interested in. It's eye opening:
Total Men Women
Swarthmore College
Number of applicants 4,852 1,969 2,883
Percent admitted 19.0% 23.1% 16.3%
Pomona College
Number of applicants 5,440 2,109 3,331
Percent admitted 17.7% 21.8% 15.1%
On the other hand, if you're a girl that is good at science, Harvey Mudd is a great safety!
Harvey Mudd College
Number of applicants 1,898 1,391 507
Percent admitted 45.9% 30.6% 88.2%
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Tue Oct 2nd, 2007 03:37 am |
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Good suggestion Riviera.
I also would suggest checking each college a student plans to apply to before assuming that males will get a huge boost because on you will find that there is not ALWAYS a huge difference in admit rates between males and females.
For instance, at Amherst, the admit rate for males is 29.3, for females 18.1% - not exactly a huge difference statistically. And, at Williams, Women actually have a slightly higher admit rate (19.3%) than men (18.9%). Reed has a similar preference for women over men. In general, there also tend to be more even male-female admit rates at many of the more popular northeastern universities(Yale, etc.)
So, I'd take any comments about males having a big advantage over females with a huge grain of salt until I'd checked the percentages at the specific colleges a kid will be applying to -- sometimes males really don't get much of advantage, or any advantage at all, just because they're male. Again, the first rule of college admissions is: Never assume. Verify.
Last edited on Tue Oct 2nd, 2007 03:38 am by CarolynLawrence
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