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DesperateDad
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
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Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 11:27 pm |
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| Seconding the props for UMich. It didn't get to be the #2 ranked public by being anti-intellectual. Yes, its a big, public Uni, but one of the best in the world, and has been for decades.
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Alumother
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Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 11:32 pm |
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I marketed UMich to S. It is a fantastic school. I know some people in the administration and on the faculty there. Yale undergrad and grad each of them . S looked at it but he's looking for more diverse, more, um, southern hemisphere I guess. Hence UCLA, UCSD, UT, Rice, UMiami...
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Consolation
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 01:42 am |
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CarolynLawrence wrote: Consolation, What you might try telling your son is that UMichigan is considered one of the finest universities in the country. I have. Repeatedly. Just this afternoon, as a matter of fact. I've told him about all of the very smart people I've known who went there, too. *I* was just cruising their website today and admiring the tremendous richness of their faculty resources. But can I get *him* to do that?  One thing I found out today is that the undergraduate body is significantly smaller than we thought it was, around the same size as Yale, which might help convince him to take another look. [Edit: Turns out I was mistaken. The number of enrolled freshmen at U Mich is about the same size as the entire undergrad population at Yale. Oh well!] Unfortunately, as we know, kids tend to develop unreasoning prejudices based on very slight evidence.
GoBLue, the unfortunate remarks were made by a [proud, no less!] graduate of Michigan State. As it happens, I have known several MSU grads, all of whom were highly intelligent--and intellectual--and one of whom is my spouse, but these were not among them, alas.
Last edited on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 01:33 am by Consolation
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CarolynLawrence
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| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 03:35 am |
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Consolation, I hear you -- it's kind of like the old lead a horse to water analogy. You know a school is a great place, and you can tell your son that, but he's the one who has to want to drink from the well.
Alumother, I loved your comment about "marketing" a school to your son. I must be a poor salesperson because it seems the more I "market" a school, the more likely it is to fall off my son's list. Obviously if MOM likes it, it can't be cool enough to go to. Sometimes I am devious, though, and pretend that I think a school is a pit of mayhem and despair -- that seems to get his attention real quick. 
Last edited on Fri Sep 7th, 2007 03:40 am by CarolynLawrence
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orchestramom
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 04:03 pm |
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| Consolation -- I too am a proud and happily successful grad of MSU (and consider myself both intelligent and intellectual) -- and I have been STRONGLY encouraging my D to consider UMich (music major) -- out-of-state. We're visiting in October. It's a fantastic school!
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entomom
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 04:05 pm |
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"My S says he doesn't want to go to school in Michigan."
safety = admissions highly likely, financially affordable & student would be happy to attend
Honors college or not, UM does not sound like a good fit for your son.
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DesperateDad
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 04:06 pm |
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I must be a poor salesperson because it seems the more I "market" a school, the more likely it is to fall off my son's list.
Remember that TV commercial line: "Professional stuntmen, don't try this at home?"
Methinks that this the correct response to "marketing" a specific college. DesperateMom had been pushing one college on D for months, and D just continued to dig in heels harder and harder each time: NOOOOOOOO!. Even tho I also agreed that this college would be an excellent fit for D, I suggested to D-mom to grap the duct tape and use it.
Cut to the third Act of the long-running saga (soap-opera?), visit the school, with initial scowls and all (why are we here? I told you I will NOT apply....), hang on campus for a day tour, lunch, etc., talk to some students, and Voila, campus sold itself to D.
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 05:04 pm |
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Hmmm...
He doesn't like UM because he heard someone once linked to another school in the same state talk in an "anti-intellectual" manner? Seems to me there's probably another basis for his prejudice that he isn't aware of or doesn't want to speak of (maybe he was crushed by the recent loss by the football team.  ). You can probe or you can let it go...for now.
He (and you) still need some "foundation" schools. If he is pursuing philosophy, he does not need a top-twenty program as an undergraduate major. A good respectable program will be fine for this interest. He also wants a school with a good rep outside of philosophy, too, and seems to have an Eastern preference. Given these three criteria, I suggest looking at:
U-MD
U-VA
U Mass-Amherst
Since he finds Chicago an acceptable location, he might also consider
U of WI
U of IL
all with good reputations both in philosophy (I was a grad student once) and out.
Another private school? Syracuse, perhaps.
Last edited on Fri Sep 7th, 2007 05:22 pm by Descartes
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Consolation
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 05:12 pm |
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orchestramom wrote: Consolation -- I too am a proud and happily successful grad of MSU (and consider myself both intelligent and intellectual) -- and I have been STRONGLY encouraging my D to consider UMich (music major) -- out-of-state. We're visiting in October. It's a fantastic school! In case I wasn't clear, I want to say that I didn't mean to suggest that one should not be proud of going to Michigan State!
I did wonder about being proud of one's college experience when that included reading no books. That's a weird thing to be proud of, IMHO, and would indicate to me that much of what MSU had to offer was probably wasted on him--unlike you and the other MSU grads I know.
Oh well, people go to college for different reasons, and apparently he got what he was looking for out of it.
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Alumother
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 06:01 pm |
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Carolyn - It's the old Brer Rabbit story - don't throw me in the briar patch, please don't throw me in the briar patch - but in reverse.
My best friend and I have two daughters who fought a lot when they were little, 3 and 4. We used to forbid them to fight. It worked!!!
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 08:36 pm |
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Descartes wrote:
all with good reputations both in philosophy (I was a grad student once) and out.
By the way, I just want to say that Descartes has been a very helpful source of information for my son about what to look for in philosophy programs, and which programs are worth considering. Thanks, Descartes. Last edited on Fri Sep 7th, 2007 08:39 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 01:55 am |
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riviera wrote: Descartes,
I am curious about your formula. Would you mind sharing it with us? I am afraid my son's list has also a lot of chimneys and high ceilings! But he also told me that if he does not get into any of his privates , he will be ok going to a UC.
Sorry, riviera, some how I overlooked your request in the follow-on replies.
I'm afraid I won't post the formula's particulars - it's complicated, requires some interpretation, and ultimately is based more on magic than sound statistical analysis. But I'll add that it is premised on this assumption: if an applicant has scores that are at the midpoint of a score range at a college with a low admission rate, s/he has a much lower probabililty of admission than if s/he has relatively the same scores at a college with a more moderate admission rate. Perhaps this is obvious, but I think many people assume that if they are in the middle of the range, they have a 50% chance of getting in, regardless of the admission rate.
Last edited on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 01:57 am by Descartes
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Consolation
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 03:52 am |
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entomom wrote: "My S says he doesn't want to go to school in Michigan."
safety = admissions highly likely, financially affordable & student would be happy to attend
Honors college or not, UM does not sound like a good fit for your son.
Well, if you insist on being rational about it! 
Seriously, though, I think his impression of Michiganders is skewed by his limited exposure, and doesn't reflect the strengths of the U of M and its students. If he were to moderate his views, I think he would stand a very good chance of getting in, and the university is clearly a great school that would have a lot to offer him. In that respect it would be a good safety.
On the other hand, his record is almost certainly not as strong as that of your daughter, and therefore he would be much less likely to win a really great scholarship. And without that, as an OOS student, the financially affordable compnent would not be there.
Do you have any idea how many students are in the Honors program? I can't seem to find any figures of that sort on the web site.
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Chedva
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 12:35 pm |
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Consolation, I took a look at the other schools that your son is considering, and it seems that Michigan, at least by reputation, is worlds different than the other schools on his list. You listed schools like Brandeis, Tufts, Carleton, Pomona, Chicago, etc. These are smaller schools, LACs or LAC-like, not as sports-minded as Michigan is, and would, I think, give a totally different feel and experience than Michigan, even within the honors college.
I can understand why a kid from in-state in Michigan would be encouraged to apply as a financial as well as academic safety, but as an out of stater, I'm not sure why you're pushing this particular school so hard.
A lot's been written on these boards about "fit" and "feel". Could these "anti-Michigan" and "anti-Michiganer" statements are just your son's way of saying that Michigan doesn't fit?
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Consolation
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 03:54 pm |
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Chedva wrote: I'm not sure why you're pushing this particular school so hard.
A lot's been written on these boards about "fit" and "feel". Could these "anti-Michigan" and "anti-Michiganer" statements are just your son's way of saying that Michigan doesn't fit?
That's certainly part of it. The Big 10 aspect of it doesn't appeal to him, and the size of the undergrad body doesn't either. Both of those are good reasons for him to look elsewhere.
The reason I was hoping he would consider it is that it is an excellent school that he is likely to get into with rolling admissions (more or less), and he really needs a school like that on his list. (If he won't even consider Michigan, he's not going to be interested in any of the other flagship state schools.) Everyone's advice is to beef up that part of his list. It's not easy, let me tell you. This is the only rolling admissions school I've found that I had even a prayer of getting him to consider seriously.
In any case, it is his choice, not mine. I only make suggestions.
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HijinksAndSue
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 05:21 pm |
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I realize this has probably all been said and suggested before but I'll go for it anyway ...
I agree that most of the schools your son seems to be interested in have many similarities that for the most part Michigan doesn't share.
And if he is not interested in a school with a big sports presence and a big student body, then it seems like a waste of time, effort and money to even apply to Michigan, rolling admissions or not.
I totally understand the appeal of rolling admissions in many cases, as it gives students (and their parents!!!) that nice early chance to breathe a sigh of relief.
But I think in your son's case, it's not as if he isn't going to get into a LOT of really really excellent schools.
Sure, those chimney schools, even the roof schools, it's a crap shoot. Who knows what they are looking for, so they're not safeties.
But I can't help but think in you guys' case, the better approach would be to find the less iffy "equivalents" of the schools he loves, even if they don't have rolling admissions and you have to wait a little longer to exhale.
Aren't there plenty of schools with EA situations where he can apply, find out earlier (maybe not as early as with rolling, but earlier than RD) and not commit? There must be a few that he/you could live with ...
As an analogy I keep thinking of those "dupe" perfumes (you know, if you like Chanel No. 5, you'll like Channel 2 cologne!) ... GOOD schools that should be locks for him and on their own level offer many of the things he loves about the chimney schools, with the only thing lacking, perhaps, the "eclat" or the big Name.
My concern is that maybe he's more infatuated with the "names" and that's clouding his vision of the big picture.
But I know this from my own experience with my D right now in terms of her not getting it together yet for her "Plan B" application process ... it's just so tough because if their hearts aren't into the applications, they might do half-a$$ jobs on them and that will show.
And in our case, all of her Plan B schools are really good schools, and only one is even remotely a safety, the rest all probably "roofs" for her BUT they're just not 100 percent where she wants to be. So the foot dragging continues.
SUCH a tough call ...
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Chedva
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 07:06 pm |
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| Has he looked at UVM? It's a much smaller flagship school - my d, who wanted LAC or LAC-like, really liked it, and it's non-binding Early Action. And I'd say that it would be a safety for your son.
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HijinksAndSue
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 04:11 am |
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Ditto on UVM if it isn't too close to home (not sure where you live but got the feeling it was northern New England for some reason) ... great state U, great rep, all the joys of New England LAC living.
My ex-boss' daughter had been torn between UVM and Pitt, got nice packages at both, ended up at UVM and loved it so much she never left. I think she's in grad school there now (in psychology).
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outwest
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 01:59 pm |
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I have read this entire thread. I just want to comment on our experience with my oldest daughter. You may take it all with a grain of salt, but I wanted to offer it none the less.
At the time (2002) she was like your son-very top statistics, high aspirations and the thought that she deserved (or at least wanted) the best. I insisted she apply to a couple of our state schools, which she did so begrudgingly, because financially there was no way we could pay for a top school and we qualified for little aid. I did a lot of research into merit schools because she wanted a small "within the walls" experience. She was stubborn (sounds much like your son) and felt I was interfereing. I honestly just thought she was in for a shock when those top schools were quite happy to take her, but there was no way she'd be able to go financially. She needed a few schools that might actually pay her to go there. Otherwise, she would be going to our state schools. Heck, even our state schools would have required loans! She applied to ten schools.
What happened is that she was waitlisted at a few top schools where she was above their statistics, but we had not visited. That shook her tree some. "I thought that was a match! Why was I waitlisted?" Then she was admitted to a couple she really liked, but with NO AID and a big packet about the parental PLUS loans. Uh...I thought...she is the oldest of three. Do we really want to get into debt to our eyeballs over this? No, we don't. I remember her crying when she realized money was going to keep her out of them. I let her mourn. Really she wan't a spoiled brat. It was just the first time that the realities of life had been thrown in her face.
Then she was admitted to our state schools (UCLA, Berkeley, UC Riverside). That was good for her self esteem. The lowest ranked gave her a full ride (UC Riverside). Hmmm...no loans, priority registration, etc. etc. Not a bad deal at all!! Berkeley and UCLA offered no money.
Then two small LACs came through. Reed in Portland, Oregon and Mills College in Oakland, CA both gave her so much money they were cheaper then Berkeley! Reed tweeked our need to their desires. She had visited it, by the way. Mills College? They gave her a full tuition scholarship. But, that's a middle tier school, she thought and a womens college to boot.
Once those top LACs and UCLA with no aid had been ceremoniously thrown in the trash can, I asked what she wanted to do. Her real choices ended up being Mills, Reed, Berkeley with loans or UC Riverside full ride. CHOICES! She actually had choices.
She went to Mills. A middle tier womens college. She graduated in 2006 with honors and is now a rabid Mills alumni, making her way in the Bay area at 23 years old with no loans hanging over her head and an excellent education under her belt.
The biggest gift you can give your son, especially if he is a humanities type kid, is to graduate with no loans. The other biggest gift you can give him is to insist that he apply to some schools that may give him money, but that would meet his needs otherwise. Believe me when I tell you that State schools and lower tiered LACs have loads of top students. My daughter made the best friends in her life at that middle tiered LAC. Also, college is a whole new ball game where you have to prove yourself all over again. Everyone starts fresh there. She worked her tush off at that school.
Keep about 5 of those top schools on the list and apply to them. You never know how the cards will fall. But, please, for both yourself and for him add 5 state and middle tiered schools to the mix.
Last edited on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 02:06 pm by outwest
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Consolation
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Posted: Sun Sep 9th, 2007 07:22 pm |
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outwest wrote: I have read this entire thread. I just want to comment on our experience with my oldest daughter. You may take it all with a grain of salt, but I wanted to offer it none the less.
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Keep about 5 of those top schools on the list and apply to them. You never know how the cards will fall. But, please, for both yourself and for him add 5 state and middle tiered schools to the mix.
Thank you, outwest, for sharing your experience. As you know, I am very concerned that he will find himself rejected or wait-listed at all of the schools he really wants to apply to now.
We live in Maine, so our only state school is the University of Maine. I wish we had the option of a really great state university, or an array of them like you Californians, but we don't. The University of Maine has its reputed strengths, but they are not in areas of study that interest him. So our affordable state school options are not good. Taking on enormous loans to attend some other average state school as an OOS student makes no sense to me.
He could only go to a middle-tier school if they offer him close to a full ride. I have no problem with part of that being work study, but I would prefer that he not take on huge loans, since the likelihood is that he will want to go to grad school. 20% or 30% merit money will not do it.
I agree with you completely about the need for some financially acceptable alternatives, and all I can say is that I will continue to look for them and suggest them to him. (I'm going to see if I can get him to reconsider Pitt, which might fit the bill and has some substantial scholarships that he could qualify for. I'm also interested in William and Mary, which is more the size and type of school he prefers, but it's hard to glean much about OOS financial aid from their website.)
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