 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Consolation
Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 488 |
| Mana: |    |
|
Posted: Sat Jul 28th, 2007 04:06 pm |
|
Pye wrote: If Tufts appeals to him, I second the opinion that Brandeis might be a good choice for a little bit closer to a safety. Location might be more appealing than Rochester,
It's a possibility. It's one of those places that I think he really would need to visit before adding it to the list. Luckily we live only about 2 hours away from it, so a visit may be in the cards.
|
Consolation
Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 488 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Sun Aug 26th, 2007 01:08 am |
|
For those who may find the ongoing list fluctuations of interest as an insight into adolescent psychology, as of today he says his list is as described below. I've noted a tendency for his opinion of places he hasn't visited to be highly influenced by CTYers and/or alums. The top 4 hold steady, though.
Defintitely:
Yale SCEA
Williams
U of Chicago
Brown
Probably:
Carleton (He thinks of this as a quasi-safety. He would be in their top 25% stats-wise, and they accept over 30%, so that may not be unrealistic, although I tend to think of it as a safetyish-match rather than a true safety.)
Middlebury (I have no idea why this has suddenly appeared in the upper reaches of the list.)
Bowdoin (Big surprise--A Maine school suddenly appears on the list! I have a feeling this is because one of his good friends is considering it.)
Maybe:
Swarthmore
Amherst
Harvard
Dartmouth
No:
Princeton
Columbia
Northwestern
Tufts (a sudden drop)
Ohio U HTC
U of Pittsburg HC (doesn't want only a strong Philosophy dept)
Cornell
Willing to look into further at my urging:
Johns Hopkins
Georgetown (but leaning against)
Oberlin
Kenyon
U of Rochester
U of Michigan Honors College
|
CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 3309 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Sun Aug 26th, 2007 06:51 am |
|
Consolation, looks like he's starting to sort out his preferences and has a good list developing.
Do caution him about thinking of Carleton as a safety. Bear a few things in mind:
- When you take out admissions from ED, the acceptance rate for RD in 2006 was just at 30%. It was likely lower last year, and probably will be lower this year.
- Being in the top 25% of their enrolled student stats doesn't mean all that much when 78% of enrolled students were in the top 10% of their class, and 58% of all enrolled students had test scores above 700.
- The ranges given for "average" stats are for ENROLLED students, not admitted students. Since Carleton pulls from the same highly competitive group of students that Brown, Yale, Williams, Chicago, etc. pull from being in the top 25% of ENROLLED student stats may not mean an easy cake walk.
- Carleton is Need-Aware in admissions. When we visited, the admissions officer made it clear that RD applicants are more likely to have need considered than ED applicants.
Carleton is a TERRIFIC school, but once kids start thinking of a school as a "safety" they can slip into thinking of it as a school not worth worrying about because "it's a done deal." Make sure he gives Carleton the same attention and care as Williams. Brown, Yale, etc., as Carleton really is not all that far behind in terms of the quality of its applicant pool.
Last edited on Sun Aug 26th, 2007 07:00 am by CarolynLawrence
|
Consolation
Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 488 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Sun Aug 26th, 2007 04:36 pm |
|
Thank you, Carolyn, those are excellent points and put things in perspective. I was somehow not aware that Carleton is a need-aware school. That alone definitely affects his chances.
I know that relying too much on the matriculation stats without considering the broader picture can be dangerous. In days of yore, there was a guide that actually published how many students in each stat bracket applied to each school, and how many got in. I remember looking at the stats for Wheaton College in Massachusetss--my safety school--and noting that they accepted every student that applied with my SAT scores. That made my selection of it as a safety a reasonable proposition. It seems that few schools reveal such information today.
I continue to try to find a few true safety schools that engage his interest. Although I could accept it if he didn't choose to go to a "safety," and did something else for a year, I would prefer that it be a choice, not a necessity.
|
CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 3309 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Sun Aug 26th, 2007 10:00 pm |
|
Consolation, I know you are on top of things. Just thought it might be helpful to give your son some facts to bring him up to speed. I think there is absolutely NO PROBLEM with the schools your son is thinking about, and he is certainly a terrific candidate. There is nothing wrong at all with aiming high, and your son should, but my mantra is always: Make sure you have a real foundation to your list, and pay just as much attention to building it as you do the rest of the list. Another way of putting it is: You want to have schools to turn down when your dream schools come through. 
Luckily, your son has plenty of time to finalize his list, and sometimes the need for safeties doesn't hit home until the nerves start jumping and jangling in, oh, mid-December. I know that my son's list has had more bounce in it than a room full of ping pong balls -- some schools always stay on it, others go off and on and off and on with dizzying speed. It's still months away from January RD deadlines, so I'm not worried about it -- this is all just part of the process.
Last edited on Sun Aug 26th, 2007 10:11 pm by CarolynLawrence
|
Peppermill
Member
|
Posted: Tue Sep 4th, 2007 09:44 pm |
|
Just read through this entire, fascinating thread and had to react to this
sometimes the need for safeties doesn't hit home until the nerves start jumping and jangling in, oh, mid-December
This is so true--especially if they attend a school where a fair number of students have applied somewhere ED. Reality strikes on Dec. 15/16 when either the student him or herself, or some of their classmates (stellar students all) has/have just been deferred or (as is happening more often of late) outright rejected by their first choices. Having a good list of well researched and very solid safeties in place is critical. Beginning the holidays in a panic because the reality of the top-heavy list has just set in, is no fun for anyone--and the whole family pays a price.
Consolation and her wonderful son have received some fantastic guidance and advice here!
|
Descartes
Super Moderator
|
Posted: Wed Sep 5th, 2007 02:15 am |
|
Consolation, it seems to me he should be treating Carleton at the same level as the U of Chicago. Their comparative stats:
Carleton
SAT CR: 670 - 750
SAT Math: 660 - 740
Chicago
SAT CR: 670 - 770
SAT Math: 650 - 760
ACT™ Composite Scores
Carleton: 28 - 32
Chicago: 28 - 33
Carleton has 78% in top 10%
Chicago has 80% in top 10%
Carleton admitted 32% of applicants, Chicago 38% (apparently 2006 stats).
Last edited on Wed Sep 5th, 2007 02:19 am by Descartes
|
Consolation
Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 488 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Wed Sep 5th, 2007 12:23 pm |
|
Descartes wrote: Consolation, it seems to me he should be treating Carleton at the same level as the U of Chicago. Their comparative stats:
Carleton
SAT CR: 670 - 750
SAT Math: 660 - 740
Chicago
SAT CR: 670 - 770
SAT Math: 650 - 760
ACT™ Composite Scores
Carleton: 28 - 32
Chicago: 28 - 33
Carleton has 78% in top 10%
Chicago has 80% in top 10%
Carleton admitted 32% of applicants, Chicago 38% (apparently 2006 stats).
So, to put things in better perspective, since he has CR 800 and Math 720 (2300 if they look at writing)--and is planning to take the test again to try to raise his Math (his idea and his choice)--top 10%, and the other stuff that these two schools seem to care about (broad and most rigorous course of study, 5s on APs, national language awards, etc), do you think he should regard these schools as matches? Reachy matches? Safetyish matches?
I realize that in any case he has to take the applications to both of them very seriously and make an effort to write excellent essays, but it would be helpful to know what you think in terms of sorting out his list.
|
Descartes
Super Moderator
|
Posted: Wed Sep 5th, 2007 05:56 pm |
|
Congratulations to your S on his fine record and high scores!
I have a self-devised, non-validated formula I have nevertheless found useful in shaping what is really a subjective judgement about these matters. Since we really have no other reliable and strictly quantitative data to work with, it relies on reported board score mid-ranges and admission rates only. I find it helps to sharpen my somewhat murkier intutions.
I plugged your S's CR and M scores into this formula together with the data from some of the colleges you cite. I also used Chicago and Carleton's 2007 admit rates (35% and 29%, respectively). Using the Carolyn-suggested house metaphor together with my interpretation of the results, this is what I get:
Yale (SCEA) - roof (but not a chimney, which is what RD would be)
Williams - roof
Brown - roof
(Amherst - roof)
(Swarthmore - roof)
(Harvard - chimney)
(Dartmouth - roof)
-- Note: I have another category, "cloud", for schools that seem real longshots.
Carleton - wall
Chicago - wall
-- Note: Carleton's slightly lower test score ranges are more than counterbalanced by their lower admit rate.
(JHU - wall)
(Oberlin - wall)
(Kenyon - floor)
(U of Rochester - foundation)
(U of Michigan - foundation [It appears you are admitted to the liberal arts college first, and then the honors program. I can't gainsay the honors program, but if its a pure numbers game, then you can probably count it as foundational, too])
Obviously this kind of thing is of limited use. It does not take into account all the other factors a college would and your S seems strong in those, too (including his Writing score, which we just don't know how it will be regarded). Thus I think you should consider this a conservative view of the situation. And no allowance has been made for financial considerations.
Last edited on Wed Sep 5th, 2007 05:57 pm by Descartes
|
CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 3309 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Wed Sep 5th, 2007 07:25 pm |
|
Descartes, I like the chimney and floor ideas!
Descartes breakdown is pretty much how I would break down your son's list as well, with a few caveats. First, I would put Kenyon and Rochester in the same category, and don't think I'd consider either a foundation school. They have both become too popular in recent years for that. He is, however, a very solid candidate at both schools.
Second, applying to Yale EA means he can't do Chicago EA, which probably is going to lessen his chances a bit. If he could apply to Chicago EA, I'd feel very comfortable with it as a "wall" school, but in the RD round, I'm not so sure.
Michigan is probably a decent bet, assuming your son writes a strong essay, has a good recommendation, and gets his application in early. That's for admission to the University, not the honors college -- but he does seem like a good candidate for the honors college.
Again, I tend to err on the side of caution because I've had to pick up the pieces after kids' over-estimate their chances too many times. I like to think in worst case scenario's: If all else fails, I also like kids to have at least TWO choices to pick from, and that's why I stress two safe bet schools so heavily. I'm always happy when I'm proven wrong, of course, but the stronger the net, the better I sleep.
The other thing to keep in mind is that while Michigan may be a relatively safe choice in terms of admissions, it isn't necessarily a financial safety when you're from out of state. So, when money is going to be an issue, I really push for another safe bet that offers a solid chance of merit money or perhaps an instate public. Please understand that doesn't mean your son should be scraping the bottom of the barrell or heading off to some third tier school, but from a financial standpoint, having two "sure things" would make me more comfortable with his list.
By the way, consolation - is your son going to pursue the Questbridge program?
Last edited on Wed Sep 5th, 2007 07:35 pm by CarolynLawrence
|
Consolation
Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 488 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 12:32 am |
|
CarolynLawrence wrote:
By the way, consolation - is your son going to pursue the Questbridge program?
I don't think so. I've sent him a link to the application, but I don't think he will pursue it. And although our income would qualify him for the program, I do not think that we are the kind of family they are looking for. To do Questbridge, he would have to write a number of essays by the end of this month, and they seem to be looking for stories of kids overcoming major disadvantages, caring for siblings after school, working jobs to help the family, being a racial minority, etc, etc. He has not had that kind of experience. Given that, it is difficult to try to persuade him to do it. I tend to think that concentrating on writing good essays for the Common App and Yale supplement would be a better use of his energy.
Thank you to you and Descartes for your estimation of where schools fit in his "house."
I'm wondering where you would put Middlebury and Bowdoin?
|
DesperateDad
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 846 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 12:53 am |
|
just a comment about UChicago: Dean O'Neill has spoken about his disdain for tests as an avenue of admissions, so while UofC looks at the scores, higher scores won't count for as much as possibly some other schools. OTOH, the(ir) essays are critical for UofC....
ps - if my kids had those test scores, they'd be one and done. Unless applying to a tech-engineering school, I don't think a higher math score will be much value-added vis a vis other stuff in the app. The one caveat would be merit money schools...
Last edited on Thu Sep 6th, 2007 12:57 am by DesperateDad
|
Consolation
Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 488 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 01:09 am |
|
DesperateDad wrote: ps - if my kids had those test scores, they'd be one and done. Unless applying to a tech-engineering school, I don't think a higher math score will be much value-added vis a vis other stuff in the app. The one caveat would be merit money schools...
Yeah, I know. But he's the one who wants to do it...and if he can lift his math score into the same range as his others, it would put him solidly into the top 25% everywhere. Which certainly wouldn't hurt.
He just needs to realize that a) the essays are actually his best hope of getting into his dream schools at this point, and b) if he wants to raise his math score he is going to have to actually STUDY for that part of the test.
|
CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 3309 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 01:23 am |
|
Keep in mind that I have relatively little information about your son - only what you have indicated here. I would probably consider Bowdoin a roof school and Middlebury in the same category as Carleton and Chicago based solely on that information. Of course, there are lots of things about him I don't know, so this is solely on the limited data I do have. I could be totally off base on his chances -- but that could be a GOOD thing for your son!  (And, again, I am not saying, nor do I think Descartes and others are saying, that your son won't get in at all of these schools! As I said above, I love when kids prove me wrong.)Last edited on Thu Sep 6th, 2007 01:31 am by CarolynLawrence
|
Descartes
Super Moderator
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 02:10 am |
|
Most assuredly not! I am just giving "odds" based on limited data and a questionable formula, and even under the slimmest of the odds I have calculated application is worth pursuing if admission is desired.
I re-did Rochester with 2007 figures and found that Carolyn is right - its number does come closer to Kenyon and probably should be called a "floor".
However, I did find out that Chicago's ED rate was 40% for 2007, which means its RD rate was probably about 32%. Not enough to change my opinion that it "ties" with Carleton. But, yes, the formula might be even less applicable to Chicago than other schools because they, in particular, say that test scores are a lower priority factor. I do note, howver, that they still manage to get a high scoring student body.
By my calculations, both Middlebury and Bowdoin come in as what I would call "ceilings" (or "reachy-matches" - I promise I won't extend the metaphor any further): their test score profile is just a tad less than Carleton's but they have lower admission rates, probably because their East Coast locations increases the demand for attendance.
Another factor we are not considering are the SAT Subject test scores which, I understand, are of increased importance at the schools that require them.
All-in-all, I'd suggest at least one more "foundation" school and, perhaps, one of the other "wall" or "floor" schools.
Last edited on Thu Sep 6th, 2007 02:23 am by Descartes
|
riviera
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 107 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 04:37 am |
|
Descartes,
I am curious about your formula. Would you mind sharing it with us? I am afraid my son's list has also a lot of chimneys and high ceilings! But he also told me that if he does not get into any of his privates , he will be ok going to a UC.
|
entomom
Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 362 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 04:40 pm |
|
| For students that get their applications in early (now), UMichigan will begin sending decisions on Nov 9. No better safety than one that's in your pocket! In my limited experience, someone with qualifications for the most select schools should have no problem getting into the Honors program, maybe even without writing the essay . Last edited on Thu Sep 6th, 2007 04:42 pm by entomom
|
Consolation
Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 488 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 06:23 pm |
|
Entomom, if I have the correct impression, your daughter is going to be a freshman at the Honors College of the U of Michigan this year, and selected it over various Ivies and the like? Has she started yet, and if so, what are her impressions so far?
My S says he doesn't want to go to school in Michigan. His impression of the state and its denizens is gathered from some family members and friends whose un- and/or anti-intellectualism and other characteristics have turned him off. I've told him that the people at the Honors college in Ann Arbor would not be the sort who boast about a) cheating all the time in high school, and b) having succeeded in graduating from college without ever reading an entire book (except for textbooks) but he is not enthused.
I mean, I don't think it would be the best possible fit for him, but I would think it might be a reasonable safety (albeit not necessarily a financial safety, without significant aid, but that's another issue). Probably the thing that would concern me most is the size. To what degree is the Honors College a smaller entity within the U?
|
GoBlueAlumMom
Member
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | Michigan |
| Posts: | 58 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 10:10 pm |
|
My S says he doesn't want to go to school in Michigan. His impression of the state and its denizens is gathered from some family members and friends whose un- and/or anti-intellectualism and other characteristics have turned him off. I've told him that the people at the Honors college in Ann Arbor would not be the sort who boast about a) cheating all the time in high school, and b) having succeeded in graduating from college without ever reading an entire book (except for textbooks) but he is not enthused.
 Double wow...
|
CarolynLawrence
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Mar 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 3309 |
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 11:23 pm |
|
| Consolation, What you might try telling your son is that UMichigan is considered one of the finest universities in the country. And, I'm referring to the entire university, not just the honors college. It is no "consolation prize" (sorry about the pun) to attend such a fine university. It is an honor. Last edited on Thu Sep 6th, 2007 11:24 pm by CarolynLawrence
|
Current time is 07:54 pm | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8   |
|
|
|
|
