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Alumother
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 12:13 am |
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Go with your heart - good.
Fail to protect said heart against the vagaries of life - not so good .
I know you know this.
I don't think USC would make a great safety for your guy if his heart is at Yale. USC is known to be fairly pre-professional. Now, if your son loved film or business or football, good safety.
For someone who's heart is at Yale, depending on considerations like rural vs. urban, size, location, I think the Brown, UChicago, Carleton, Georgetown etc. path is the right one to follow for intellectual fit. For safeties, you should probably have him look for excellent departments in the areas he likes, and the politics one will probably yield more than the philosophy one - unless of course he is OK to go with a good state school like Michigan or Wisconsin or Cal etc.
The financial issue isn't one I have any expertise in and I bow to the goddess Calmom in this..
Congrats on his stats. It is really sucky that your kid, any kid, does so well and the answer isn't just "Of course, everywhere will take him and full need will be met."
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 12:51 am |
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Just want to add a few more thoughts: Apparently Rice has ended ID, beginning with this year.
Second, apparently I mis-understood your initial post. I thought you were saying that your family probably wouldn't qualify for much need-based aid, and that therefore merit money was going to be very important. Sounds like that is not the case. If, as LC suggests, you have run the numbers (Amherst has a particularly good online calculator), and are sure you will qualify for enough need-based aid to make attending realistic, then applying to need-based only schools, and these need-based only schools in particular, makes more sense. I'm sure you already have thought of this, but some of the alternatives (Reed, Oberlin, Carleton, Mac) mentioned are need-aware schools but may guarantee to meet full demonstrated need if admitted.
Finally, Alumother is right -- Go with his/your heart, but have a back up plan if financial issues are involved. The main downside with EA Yale is that it is SC, and that means giving up some other options, such as Chicago EA, but I also understand how stubborn 17/18 year old boys can be as I have one myself, so I wouldn't drive yourself crazy with worry if he really wants to go that route as long as he agrees to have a solid back up plan.
I also agree with her - it does stink that kids with great stats can't be auto admits everywhere. Sometimes I think it is easier for more mid-range kids these days because they are more open to applying more widely. Do be honest with your son, however - you may want to print out this discussion for him to read and discuss some of the points made honestly.
Last edited on Fri Jul 20th, 2007 01:07 am by CarolynLawrence
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leftcoast
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 01:02 am |
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I've been struggling with this: should I advise him not to play his trump card at a place where it will do him so little good, or should he follow his heart. He'll probably do the latter. I am not sure what you mean by "trump" card. Do you know what the admit rate has been historically for SCEA applicants?
But I also realize that some of these schools have stated that they do not expect families with income under $60K per year to contribute anything. We're way, way under that. Please understand that during the financial aid process, these schools will redefine/recalculate "income". Sometimes this works to your advantage - they may make deductions that are not available on the FAFSA. But it can also work to your disadvantage if they are adding items back in.
I don't think your son should refrain from applying to his dream schools because of concerns about financial aid -- but at the same time, I do think it is a mistake to put all his hopes on getting into a 100% need school. If nothing else, insist that he apply to your in-state public just as a backup - or, if he is designated a National Merit finalist, make sure he includes one of the colleges that promises full rides to NM finalists (schools like the Arizona State U. honors college). It doesn't matter if it is a bad "fit" -- applying to the school doesn't mean he has to attend. The point is, things may look very different next April when the acceptance letters and financial aid awards are in. It is not a great situation to be in, but at least that will leave him with some sort of options if he is not admitted to any colleges that provide a workable financial aid award.
Of course it would be much better if the financial safety is a school that your son wants to attend -- but I know that sometimes that doesn't exist. We don't always get what we want. I think its better if your son would look at the types of schools where he is likely to get a full-ride merit scholarship -- but if he is not interested in that approach, you want to make sure that he doesn't end up with no place to go at all.
Last edited on Fri Jul 20th, 2007 01:15 am by leftcoast
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 01:18 am |
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Consolation wrote: Alumother wrote: When my daughter was applying to colleges, that's how we did it. And we were lucky. With the UCs as her safeties, I thought we were fine. But here's the kicker. She would not have liked a large school. And I knew it. She was commiting Safety Fraud, i.e. putting a school on the list and saying it would be OK. Here's the clue to Safety Fraud. Your safety has nothing in common with your loved reaches and matches.
Alumother -- Safety Fraud. I love it. May I borrow that phrase. It's a good one, as is your definition.
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Alumother
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 05:00 am |
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Are you kidding? With all the advice you have given out? It's the LEAST I can give in return.....
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frazzled1
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 12:20 pm |
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Consolation, since you're looking for safeties, I'd like to second Carolyn's suggestion of Pittsburgh. I really like this school! It's in a great town, in what I consider to be a very good area. Some of its departments are absolutely top-notch. Your son would not only be in their honors program, he'd be a candidate for their top full-ride scholarship, which includes tuition/r/b/other stuff (is it the Chancellor's?). This scholarship also bestows many academic perks, such as mentoring, special lectures, etc. Even if he didn't want to do the additional Chancellor's scholarship app (and I think there's an interview, too), I'd be surprised if he didn't receive a full-tuition scholarship offer. He'd find a peer group of top students. Great sports. One of the best advantages of applying to Pitt - it's rolling admissions, and he can have an answer by October (my daughter did).
Although she eventually went elsewhere, Pitt stayed close to the top of my d's list throughout the entire process. I think it's a terrific option.
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limner
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 01:24 pm |
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| Consolation, one other thing to consider are LACs. They tend to have more female applicants and that can be a male's hook. My son's list was ridiculously top-heavy at first, and it took some, uhm, time to get solid (and liked) safeties on it. He had five LACs on his list but had visited only two of those. He was accepted to the two LACs he'd visited, then was waitlisted at a third one he hadn't. I had written off the other two LACs because they were the most selective ones, but he was accepted at both, without visiting or interviewing. I noticed another male on the other board who had applied to (IIRC) about eight or nine of the most selective LACs in the country and was accepted to every single one. Granted, these are anecdotes not data, but it's something to consider. I also think geography can be a hook with LACs.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 03:21 pm |
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Adding to Frazzled's comments about Pitt: They have one of the top-ranked philosophy departments in the country. If my son was open to considering universities, I'd have Pitt and its honors program on his list in an instant.
I also want to mention Ohio U's Tutorial College again - this is a unique honors college, with amazing opportunities for one on one work with professors and to customize studies to personal interests and plenty of scholarships.
Last edited on Fri Jul 20th, 2007 03:23 pm by CarolynLawrence
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kdmom
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 08:56 pm |
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| I second JocelynDad's suggestion of Dickinson. You can find a number of reviews of the school on this board.
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Consolation
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 11:49 pm |
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CarolynLawrence wrote: Adding to Frazzled's comments about Pitt: They have one of the top-ranked philosophy departments in the country. If my son was open to considering universities, I'd have Pitt and its honors program on his list in an instant.
I also want to mention Ohio U's Tutorial College again - this is a unique honors college, with amazing opportunities for one on one work with professors and to customize studies to personal interests and plenty of scholarships.
I'll check them both out. Thanks!
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 07:31 pm |
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Even better than Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall also has a very good philosophy department, and its political science program is excellent as well. Would definitely be a safe bet with merit money possiblities for your son.
For philosophy only, there is a very good article on the Philosophical Gourmet webpage about choosing an undergraduate philosophy program that offers some other suggestions, including some of the colleges mentioned above:
http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/2004/undergrad.htm
Last edited on Sat Jul 21st, 2007 07:35 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Consolation
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Posted: Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 03:26 pm |
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leftcoast wrote: I've been struggling with this: should I advise him not to play his trump card at a place where it will do him so little good, or should he follow his heart. He'll probably do the latter. I am not sure what you mean by "trump" card. Do you know what the admit rate has been historically for SCEA applicants?
I mean his early decision trump card. The SCEA admit rate at Yale for 2006/7 was 19.7%, significantly lower than the ED rate at Williams or the U of C, his next choices. And, of course, this year it is likely to be even worse, as kids who would have applied ED to Harvard and Princeton are likely to try Yale SCEA instead since those schools have eliminated ED. He does have a legacy--a grandparent, which counts at Yale--and apparently that only helps if you go SCEA. The RD admit rate at Yale this year was 6.4%, for an overall rate of 9.6%. (Believe it or not, this represented an INCREASE in the admit rate of .7%, and if the expected surge of early apps happens, it will likely go down again.)
So by applying SCEA at Yale he is probably lincreasing his chances of getting in slightly--possibly from "slim to none" to "slim"  --but decreasing his chances at his other favorites, which are more likely in the first place. On the other hand, if he REALLY wants Yale, it represents his best chance and he might as well go for it--but have a backup plan.
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Consolation
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Posted: Wed Jul 25th, 2007 04:57 pm |
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CarolynLawrence wrote: For philosophy only, there is a very good article on the Philosophical Gourmet webpage about choosing an undergraduate philosophy program that offers some other suggestions, including some of the colleges mentioned above:
http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/2004/undergrad.htm
That is a good resource: I've used it before.
Yesterday I had a chat with someone I know who is a retured professor from the College of Wooster. Speaking of safeties, of the Ohio schools, he recommended Kenyon for my son, whom he knows a bit. (It also fits in with Alumother's safety selection methodology.) In his opinion, though, it is essential to visit those schools in order to tell if you'd really feel at home. Whether we will manage that before application time is questionable, though. (He also recommended Grinnell, which I think is just too isolated, and Carleton, which I regard as more of a match than a safety. He thought Rochester was a strong contender.)
My son doesn't like the idea of being at an honors college at a huge school that is otherwise not compatible, which lets out Pitt. (The U of Michigan is possibly a better fit. I still have to check out the Ohio tutorial program.) He also isn't interested in places that have a strong pre-professional bent as opposed to liberal arts, which probably lets out Wash U and USC.
So at the moment the list is looking like Yale SCEA, Williams, U of Chicago, Brown, Amherst, Swarthmore, U of Rochester, Kenyon, and still out there Tufts/Carleton/Middlebury/Dartmouth/Reed/Georgetown/Hopkins/Haverford and probably some other places I've forgotten.
I've run the Amherst FA calculator with some rough figures, and it came out about where I expected.
I'm feeling somewhat better about the safety end, but we're not done yet...
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Wed Jul 25th, 2007 11:59 pm |
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Consolation wrote: I'm feeling somewhat better about the safety end, but we're not done yet...
It's not even August! There is plenty of time yet. My son's list is still in a wild state of flux as well and I figure it probably won't be cast in stone until the applications actually go out.
Keep in mind that many kids are still making up their minds well into November and December, and even sometimes into January. One student I worked with decided in March that she didn't like the schools she'd applied to and contacted me for advice about which schools were still taking late applications. She ended up at a college that wasn't even on her radar in October (let alone August), and is very happy. And, my own daughter was absolutely 100% convinced in August that she'd be applying ED to one school because it was her "absolute favorite." She changed her mind about applying there ED in October, and, by early December, decided that she wasn't even going to apply there RD. It's all part of the process for kids (and they ARE kids!) and there is no "right" path to the perfect college list.
I really like the U of Rochester and when their viewbook came for my son yesterday it reinforced that feeling for me again. Great place, and many solid departments across the board. Kenyon is great but I agree with your friend: you won't know if any school is a fit until after a visit. However, that doesn't mean you have to visit every possible school before your son applies -- for time and financial reasons, we won't be able to visit all of the schools floating around and through my son's list either, but I figure there will l be plenty of time for visits to the ones we don't get to after the fat envelopes come back.
(By the way, not sure if your friend mentioned it, but your son might want to take a look at Denison's interdisciplinary philosophy-political science-economics major. It sounds like it might be right up his alley, and Denison is a great school as well. I believe there are some other LACs with similar programs as well)
But, really, it really does sound to me like your son is right where he should be in the process at this point. Don't be surprised if there are more twists and turns along the way, but remember that while this is an important decision, it isn't a life or death decision. Things tend to work out as they should, one way or another, even though the ride can be pretty bumpy. Maybe we parents should all buy safety helmets along with our duct tape. 
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orangesulfur
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Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2007 01:46 am |
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Consolation,
Looks to me that the only two possible safeties you have on this list are U Rochester and Kenyon. Is that your take on this?
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Consolation
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Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2007 04:41 pm |
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orangesulfur wrote: Consolation,
Looks to me that the only two possible safeties you have on this list are U Rochester and Kenyon. Is that your take on this?
Yes. Of course, it's two more than there were a couple of weeks ago.
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Consolation
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Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2007 04:46 pm |
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CarolynLawrence wrote: Adding to Frazzled's comments about Pitt: They have one of the top-ranked philosophy departments in the country. If my son was open to considering universities, I'd have Pitt and its honors program on his list in an instant.
I also want to mention Ohio U's Tutorial College again - this is a unique honors college, with amazing opportunities for one on one work with professors and to customize studies to personal interests and plenty of scholarships.
I sent for the viewbook from Ohio's Honors Tutorial College. It does seem like a super program. I'm not thrilled that all six of the students whom they choose to profile on their web site come from Ohio, and I'm not thrilled that it appears you have to declare your major up front, but it does sound as if it could provide a truly outstanding undergraduate experience if the fit is right.
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orangesulfur
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Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2007 04:50 pm |
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I just wanted to clarify what your thoughts were. Pretty nerve-wracking, isn't it?
Last edited on Thu Jul 26th, 2007 04:52 pm by orangesulfur
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Fri Jul 27th, 2007 08:22 pm |
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Consolation wrote:
I sent for the viewbook from Ohio's Honors Tutorial College. It does seem like a super program. I'm not thrilled that all six of the students whom they choose to profile on their web site come from Ohio, and I'm not thrilled that it appears you have to declare your major up front, but it does sound as if it could provide a truly outstanding undergraduate experience if the fit is right.
I can put you in touch with someone who is not from Ohio whose child is in the HTC and has had a fabulous experience there.
Carolyn
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Pye
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Posted: Sat Jul 28th, 2007 03:17 pm |
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If Tufts appeals to him, I second the opinion that Brandeis might be a good choice for a little bit closer to a safety. Location might be more appealing than Rochester,
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