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Consolation
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 01:46 pm |
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Forgive me for thinking out loud. We've made some progress, but are still stuck on the safeties.
At this point the list looks like (in order of his preference):
Yale SCEA (probably a snowball's chance in hell, but oh well)
Williams
University of Chicago [a match, I think]
Brown
Amherst
Tufts [He asked me if this would be a safety. Thats how it feels to him. I told him that I would think of it more as a match, based on his stats (high for them) and their acceptance rate (low).]
Schools he has expressed a strong interest in but not seen:
Swarthmore
Schools that I plan to urge him to consider:
U of Michigan (with an eye to early application and the Honors College)
Other schools that are still floating around out there but on the radar screen, in no particular order:
McGill
Dartmouth
Harvard
Georgetown
Middlebury
Johns Hopkins
Haverford
Carleton
The west coast (Claremont McKenna/Pomona/Reed)
Schools he's seen or thought about and seems to have eliminated:
Columbia
Princeton
Northwestern
Cornell
All engineering schools
Pretty much anything in the South
And of course the Maine trinity of Colby, Bates, and Bowdoin
He still needs at least one good safety. Preferably two. I can't seem to get him interested in researching them, so I may have to pick a couple and thrust them under his nose. I think that the Ohio schools are probably out. I'm thinking about things in NY or PA, or maybe the west coast.
To recap his stats: SAT 2300, SATIIs 780Fr/760Chem/730MathII; NMF (projected);GPA around 95 unweighted, school doesn't rank but within top 10%; all honors/AP/accelerated with maximum academic course load including 3 AP sciences, 2 AP languages, AP Calc, etc; 5s in all three AP exams so far (MEH, Bio, French Lang); state and national awards in French and Spanish all years, including firsts; NHS and jr year book award; Attended CTY 4 yrs, studying philosophy; 3-season athlete all years and has made it to states; Violinist in Youth Symphony plus several selective string quartet seminars/camps; Modest involvement in ECs: Model UN, Math Team, WorldQuest; not stellar but steady volunteer work at soup kitchen and abroad. He has never been an officer of anything, and he's never pursued anything just for his resume. He's intellectual, introverted, stubborn, and witty.
He has a very strong interest in studying abroad. Although he has a strong interest in philosophy, he's also very interested in history and international studes, and probably political science. He wants to add another language. He doesn't seem to want to be a scientist at this point, despite the courses he's taken.
Last edited on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 02:08 pm by Consolation
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mackinaw
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 02:49 pm |
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Lots of yummy schools on the list, which of course will have to be honed.
A few comments, may have more later.
1) Regarding Tufts, this may be more myth than reality, but the "Tufts syndrome" refers to that college's alleged rejection of candidates whom it regards as taking them lightly -- treating them as a match or safety and not as the applicant's preferred school (or one of them). Don't even bother applying if you haven't visited, for example.
2) If you're into the Big Midwests, give some thought also to UWis (Madison). (Admission: I went there for grad school.)
3) Even with his strong record, your son has no safeties on the list. Of course, there's a good chance he could get into some of the matches and reaches, but keep in mind that a true safety is (a) one he would have a very high probability of admission to (75% or above), (b) he would enjoy attending, and (c) you can afford.
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Consolation
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 03:09 pm |
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mackinaw wrote:1) Regarding Tufts, this may be more myth than reality, but the "Tufts syndrome" refers to that college's alleged rejection of candidates whom it regards as taking them lightly -- treating them as a match or safety and not as the applicant's preferred school (or one of them). Don't even bother applying if you haven't visited, for example.
2) If you're into the Big Midwests, give some thought also to UWis (Madison). (Admission: I went there for grad school.)
3) Even with his strong record, your son has no safeties on the list. Of course, there's a good chance he could get into some of the matches and reaches, but keep in mind that a true safety is (a) one he would have a very high probability of admission to (75% or above), (b) he would enjoy attending, and (c) you can afford.
We have visited Tufts. He also has a friend going there next year with whom he could probably do an overnight this fall.
I'm not into the Big Midwests in general as undergrad experiences, but the prospect of rolling admissions at UM and the honors college puts it on my list, since it is the only reasonably suitable rolling admit place I can find. (Also, we have family in the Detroit area.) Whether he would get sufficient aid from them is another matter.
On the safety thing: I know, I know! Tufts is his idea of a safety that he would be happy to attend. He simply doesn't seem to be interested in any places with admit rates above 30% or so, although he does fall into the top 25% at a number of those. As far as affording it is concerned, due to financial reverses we basically can't afford anything, and so are very dependent on his getting aid to cover almost all of the cost. That complicates matters significantly.
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 03:13 pm |
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Wisconsin also has rolling admissions. You could apply in mid-September and know by Halloween. It also has an Honors program.
How about U of Rochester for a safety? Good Philosophy department and good overall experience.
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Wendy (wjb)
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 03:15 pm |
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From your son's list, it appears he favors smaller schools. What are his other needs/ desires? Has he considered Brandeis? Fine academics, ex-urban Boston location. Not quite a safety, but certainly a very comfortable match. Displayed interest is important at Brandeis.
Also, you mention that his top choice is Yale, but that one of his important criterion is the ability to study abroad. Only about 10% of Yale undergrads study abroad during the school year, although many more study abroad during the summer.
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mackinaw
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 03:18 pm |
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If he's seeking merit-based aid in addition to need-based aid, then dropping down a notch in the selectivity of schools is likely to increase his chances. You might want to explore some of the fine schools in this range, though by crossing off Ohio Schools, K-College, etc., you may already be eliminating that option from consideration.
(Some of the schools on his list now , such as UChicago, do offer competitive merit scholarships. Chicago looks for extraordinary applicants for those -- both in terms of academic credentials and notable achievements. Here's a link: http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level3.asp?id=444 .)
Last edited on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 03:35 pm by mackinaw
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jocelynDAD
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 04:26 pm |
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Consolation wrote:
He simply doesn't seem to be interested in any places with admit rates above 30% or so,
The rate of selectivity should not be a criteria IMO for any college. This indicates a sense of entitlement that could be a trap for any student. As far as affording it is concerned, due to financial reverses we basically can't afford anything, and so are very dependent on his getting aid to cover almost all of the cost. That complicates matters significantly.
Now you are entering the Twilight Zone of the college application process.
Not knowing (or wanting to know anything about your personal finances), your comment about 'financial reverses' indicate that, in the past, you had some financial success. The Financial Aid portion of this process has given quite a few families a jolt.
All of the schools on this list has price tags (currently) of over 40K, in most cases closer to 50K a year, not including travel and incidential costs. Going overseas in the summer as Yale students tend to do is additional $$$.
In my experience with families who believe their particular set of financial problems will be understood by FA personnel at colleges - shock at the amount of actual grant $$$ the college is willing to give and the amount of cash they and their child is expected to pay directly or thru loans has ended many a hope of attending a really expensive college.
If there is the possibility that $$$ or lack of same will be a governing factor for your child, then a reality session is necessary for both him and his parents.
He does have excellent stats - at many fine schools, with lower tuition/costs (in the 30k close to 40K range), he might score a merit aid that would pay up to a third or half of these expenses.
IMO, failure to address the finances, before the list is generated is a recipe for disappointment. Remember the schools on the current list will not give the FA information until April, a very short turnaround for decision where $$$ are concerned.
The list of excellent LAC's with merit aid available and where he would be a prime condidate are many. IMO the need to create a realistic financial fact based list of colleges is paramount. He can still 'reach' as high as he wishes, but the list must be grounded in reality, Financial reality is often a difficult discussion, but like a paraphrase of a commercial of old said, 'face facts now or face facts later', in either case, the facts that finances are short and the possibility that grant aid or need based aid might be less than you hope is very real.
Possible merit aid schools:
Grinnell, Knox, St Olaf, Kenyon, Denison, Wooster, Dickinson, Ursinus, Whitman, Colorado College, Illinois Wesleyan, Lawrence, Beloit, Lake Forest, Oberlin, Allegheny, Muhlenberg, Rhodes, Centre, Hendrix ()the last three are in the South, but excellent schools nonetheless)
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Wendy (wjb)
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 04:34 pm |
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To Jocelyndad's list of LACs that offer financial aid, I'd add Brandeis, which offers generous merit-based aid to top students.
http://www.brandeis.edu/admissions/financial/scholarships.html
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mackinaw
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 05:11 pm |
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To second JDad's specific recommendations (since they are consistent with my suggestion of moving down a rung in selectivity) some of the schools on his list are among the very best colleges in the country in both name value and quality of their programs. I have my own favs in the midwest, and from that list I would particularly recommend Grinnell, Beloit, and Oberlin, but I also know kids who got excellent educations (and merit money) at Denison and Kalamazoo. I'm not dissing any of the other schools, just trying to boost some that from my own experience and contacts seem especially worthy.
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Wendy (wjb)
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 06:27 pm |
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| And here's another possibility, which probably qualifies as a safety for your son (48% acceptance rate, mid-50 SAT range 1250-1420): University of Rochester. Here's a link to their web page on merit aid. Looks good. http://enrollment.rochester.edu/financial/undergrads/merit.shtm
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 07:51 pm |
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I agree with all that's been said. I can't stress enough that if money is a concern, the list needs to have financial safeties as well as admissions safeties.
I hope you won't mind me being blunt, but, based on your description, it sounds like your son is basically an unhooked white male. The odds really are stacked against him at many of the schools on his current list. He certainly has excellent grades and test scores, but so will all of the other students in the admissions pool at those schools. I'm not trying to discourage him from applying to the schools on his list - they are definitely worth a shot and I do understand why he likes them so much. But, realistically, as you already know, he needs a back up plan, especially if money may be an issue. The best financial aid packages tend to go to the students who are pegged as most desirable in the admit pool.
I've worked with many great students, who, like your son, seem to feel that match and safety schools are beneath them because, well, they have such great grades and test scores. What I explain to them is that the admissions game is all about ending up with CHOICES. While is likely that your son will get into at least some of the schools on his list, I would suggest you ask him what will happen if only gets into one of them or if he doesn't get into any of them? Wouldn't it be nice to have some CHOICES? This is especially true if you need to end up with additional financial choices. Again, if you get into your top choices - no problem. You go there. But if you don't, you need a back up plan or you are flying without a net.
Since your son seems to prefer mid-sized universities, I think Descartes suggestion of Rochester is excellent. Here are a few other schools. Not all of them are safeties, but they could be financial safeties, due to merit opportunities at these schools.
Penn State Schuyers Honors College
University of Pittsburg Honors College (Pitt has one of the most stellar philosophy programs in the country)
Ohio University Tutorial College
Case Western
Rice (excellent philosophy and political science departments. Since Rice gets so many apps from "science/tech" types, kids interested in social sciences and humanities get a bit of a boost sometimes. Intermediate Decision is also a nice early option.)
Washington U in St. Louis (Obviously not a safety, but their top merit scholarships are excellent)
University of Southern California.
Last edited on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 08:25 pm by CarolynLawrence
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vocca
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 08:02 pm |
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Given his strong interest in studying abroad, etc --- Macalester College?
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Alumother
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 09:11 pm |
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I think this question of how top-statted kids who don't have a hook per se can develop a good list of safeties - well, it's a good one. Your son doesn't have a safety on the list except Michigan. And the issue is, will he be happy at a big big school.
When my daughter was applying to colleges, that's how we did it. And we were lucky. With the UCs as her safeties, I thought we were fine. But here's the kicker. She would not have liked a large school. And I knew it. She was commiting Safety Fraud, i.e. putting a school on the list and saying it would be OK. Here's the clue to Safety Fraud. Your safety has nothing in common with your loved reaches and matches.
So with my son, who has lower grades and SATs than your guy, but is still sort of in the same category, here's what we did. He looked at Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Stanford. He picked which of those he liked best and told me why. Then we looked for schools that shared AT LEAST ONE of the most important characteristics. Because no less selective schools are just like the most selective schools otherwise they would BE a most selective school. If you get my drift.
For my daughter it would have been like this. She liked 1. Most important - midsized. 2. Near a big city 3. Rich social environment, not too conservative or too liberal 4. Good biology or psychology but also good liberal arts. So if we had done the match/safety thing correctly, I would have suggested Rice to her as a match. And I don't know what the safety would have been.
For my son, his safety is University of Miami. It is one of the most diverse schools in the country, it has fantastic marine biology, a top-notch sports team (football not basketball but oh well), a hip-hop/Latino music environment....In many ways it is as good or better of a fit for him than his first choice. Will he be disappointed if he doesn't get into Penn or Princeton or Duke or whatever his top choice super-selective turns out to be? Yes, of course. But would I have wild enthusiam for his safety and would he be glad to go there? After the disappointment, I hope and think yes. Because it matches enough parameters outside of grades and SATs. And great merit $$$ BTW .
The hard part is that you can't replicate the top choice if its a super-selective. You have to decide, are you willing to go LAC? Neither of my kids have been. Are you willing to go large state school? Neither of my kids are thrilled with that. So then you are left with sorting through the mid-sized privates, figuring out what parameters will find you a happy safety.
And I find I'm getting really fond of Rice now too. Although no one in their right mind would call it a safety at least it's not Harvard.
One last thought. If your son is set on Yale EA let him do it. My D's guidance counselor urged Harvard on her due to my family's various attendees. She was waitlisted and eventually deferred. AND, she didn't even want to go there. Duh. However, make sure he understands that Yale EA may be really tough this year tough since Harvard and Princeton both canned their early application options. I still wouldn't try to game the system, but just make sure he understands all the info before he makes his choice.
Last edited on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 09:14 pm by Alumother
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Consolation
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 09:18 pm |
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Let me make this absolutely clear: HE is not selecting schools by their admit rates, nor is he sneering at any school because it admits more students than another. He is not laboring under a "sense of entitlement" as JocelynDad suggests. He probably has no idea what the percentages of admits are at most of them, except that he knows that the admit rate at his favorite school is very, very low. (His third favorite school has a higher admit rate than those lower on the list and places he has eliminated.) Far from feeling cocky, I'm sure that the knowledge that he probably won't get into the place he loves is not making him feel good, so he should be adequately humbled already.
His choices are simply the places that have captured his fancy, that appeal to him. His selection process is if anything too naive.
When I say that he isn't interested in any place with an admit rate higher than 30%, I am simply expressing MY OWN WORRY at the fact that his list needs a few real safeties, not suggesting that he is using it as a criterion.
Trust me, I am fully aware that he is an unhooked white male, and from New England to make it worse.  I am also fully aware that thousands of kids applying to his favorites will have records that are better than his, more money than we do, and more access to special help with prep and packaging. I can only hope that he finds some way to stand out.
If the best he can do is $15K or $20K merit aid at a place that costs $40K, he won't be going there. On the other hand, if he CAN manage to get into one of the most selective schools on his list, their stated policy and our income is such that he COULD afford to go there. That is the major reason why I hesitate to push as safeties costly private schools that are unlikely to give him anything other than 20-30% merit money.
Re studying abroad, we have checked into the transportability of FA and the availability of FA for summer study everywhere. It is available at his top choices.
I was thinking about USC as a safety for him, since he would presumably be geographically desirable. They also seem to have a penchant for NMFs. U of Rochester is another good idea. I've gotten the impression that everyone and their brother is applying to WUSTL these days, but he just got another mailing from them today. Maybe it will interest him.
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entomom
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 09:24 pm |
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As far as mid-sized schools with substantial merit aid, I second (or third  ?) Rice, Brandeis and WUSTL. Is the SE out of the picture? If not I'd add, Vandy, Emory and Tulane.
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leftcoast
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 10:38 pm |
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On the other hand, if he CAN manage to get into one of the most selective schools on his list, their stated policy and our income is such that he COULD afford to go there. Are you sure? Is this your first time dealing with the financial aid sytem? Do you know what your FAFSA EFC is? Do you know what your CSS Profile EFC is? Do you have any major assets, such as owning your own home? Is the current income strictly from employment -- or do you have sources that would change the way the financial aid system might look at you, such as income from a partnership or self-employment?
I am not trying to give you a rough time -- but I definitely have jumped through all the hoops a number of times with the financial aid process at private colleges. I just want to make sure that you understand that the schools on your son's wish list will not meet FAFSA EFC -- they will determine need based on their own policies base on information provided with the CSS Profile, which includes home equity - and they may make other adjustments to income along the way.
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Consolation
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 10:56 pm |
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leftcoast wrote: On the other hand, if he CAN manage to get into one of the most selective schools on his list, their stated policy and our income is such that he COULD afford to go there. Are you sure? Is this your first time dealing with the financial aid sytem? Do you know what your FAFSA EFC is? Do you know what your CSS Profile EFC is? Do you have any major assets, such as owning your own home? Is the current income strictly from employment -- or do you have sources that would change the way the financial aid system might look at you, such as income from a partnership or self-employment?
I am not trying to give you a rough time -- but I definitely have jumped through all the hoops a number of times with the financial aid process at private colleges. I just want to make sure that you understand that the schools on your son's wish list will not meet FAFSA EFC -- they will determine need based on their own policies base on information provided with the CSS Profile, which includes home equity - and they may make other adjustments to income along the way.
I realize that many colleges will probably come up with a figure that they think we should contribute that will seem large to us.
But I also realize that some of these schools have stated that they do not expect families with income under $60K per year to contribute anything. We're way, way under that.
More to the point, we are using our home equity simply to live at the moment, much less pay tuition. I can't put it more baldly than that. I really don't think that schools are going to expect us to come up with $20K per year if they are assessing need. (Of course, there are plenty of schools that will not choose to meet our need, even if they recognize it.)
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entomom
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 10:57 pm |
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I've only been through the process once, but I agree with everything that LC says. My financial status is about as straightforward as you can get: salary, home equity and mutual funds, no complicating factors. Yet, differences in FA awards between need only schools were the most variable part of the college process.
I would not read too much into the descriptions of FA offers on the college websites. All of the 100% need schools say that if accepted, they will make it possible for your child to attend. But look on the CC boards every year and you will see kids and parents who are surprised and dismayed at their FA awards. Also, the numbers they give on their websites are averages, you have no idea beyond salary what the family circumstances were.
And I'd add one more variable beyond the usual financial ones, how much does the college want your kid? It does make a difference, particularly when you are asking a need only school for a FA review.
Sorry, crossposted. One comment on the schools that don't expect you to pay anything if you are under 60k--P & H and maybe a couple of others are grant only, others will include loans & WS.
Last edited on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 11:07 pm by entomom
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Consolation
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 11:06 pm |
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Alumother wrote: I think this question of how top-statted kids who don't have a hook per se can develop a good list of safeties - well, it's a good one. Your son doesn't have a safety on the list except Michigan. And the issue is, will he be happy at a big big school.
When my daughter was applying to colleges, that's how we did it. And we were lucky. With the UCs as her safeties, I thought we were fine. But here's the kicker. She would not have liked a large school. And I knew it. She was commiting Safety Fraud, i.e. putting a school on the list and saying it would be OK. Here's the clue to Safety Fraud. Your safety has nothing in common with your loved reaches and matches.
So with my son, who has lower grades and SATs than your guy, but is still sort of in the same category, here's what we did. He looked at Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Stanford. He picked which of those he liked best and told me why. Then we looked for schools that shared AT LEAST ONE of the most important characteristics. Because no less selective schools are just like the most selective schools otherwise they would BE a most selective school. If you get my drift.
.
.
.
The hard part is that you can't replicate the top choice if its a super-selective. You have to decide, are you willing to go LAC? Neither of my kids have been. Are you willing to go large state school? Neither of my kids are thrilled with that. So then you are left with sorting through the mid-sized privates, figuring out what parameters will find you a happy safety.
And I find I'm getting really fond of Rice now too. Although no one in their right mind would call it a safety at least it's not Harvard.
One last thought. If your son is set on Yale EA let him do it. My D's guidance counselor urged Harvard on her due to my family's various attendees. She was waitlisted and eventually deferred. AND, she didn't even want to go there. Duh. However, make sure he understands that Yale EA may be really tough this year tough since Harvard and Princeton both canned their early application options. I still wouldn't try to game the system, but just make sure he understands all the info before he makes his choice.
You've hit the nail on the head--several times!
I'm cursing the fact that THIS has to be the year H & P do away with EA. So all these kids gaming the system who would really rather go to one of them will flood Yale SCEA, making it even more difficult for kids who really, really want to go there and aren't even applying to H & P. I've been struggling with this: should I advise him not to play his trump card at a place where it will do him so little good, or should he follow his heart. He'll probably do the latter.
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jocelynDAD
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 11:08 pm |
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Consolation wrote: if he CAN manage to get into one of the most selective schools on his list, their stated policy and our income is such that he COULD afford to go there. That is the major reason why I hesitate to push as safeties costly private schools that are unlikely to give him anything other than 20-30% merit money.
Re studying abroad, we have checked into the transportability of FA and the availability of FA for summer study everywhere. It is available at his top choices.
Leftcoast post is the voice of experience, like herself, I have some experience with financial aid and it unique approaches to what is the EFC for individuals. I have had six children go thru this process and have dealt with five different colleges, Lafayette (twice), Denison, Allegheny, Washington U at St Louis and currently St OLaf.
How anyone could be sure of how a financial aid department will interpret their family and their child's Estimated Financial Contribution from their 'stated policy' at the same time presuming that because $$$ are 'available' at a college means that they will be available for their child is beyond my experience.
The financial Aid people will seek to know if any grandparents have trust or $$ in bank for the child, the child's assets will be fully disclosed and be expected to be fully (over 4 years) contributed. The chiild's income likewise. Your family's assets, including business, property, house, vacation home etc.
As for your bills, they will not care one bit, they look solely at assets and the age of the parents as well, the nearer to retirement the better.
I would urge all parents approaching this process to become very familiar with FAFSA and the PROFILE - they will govern the possibilities of your child getting need based aid, loans, work study. What most colleges have declared is that they will meet the 'need' for most but not all of their accepted students.
In many cases, they 'meet' the 'need' with large loans and they 'meet' the 'need' THEY DETERMINE. So if they determine that the 'need' is 34,000, offer 17.000 in grants and 10,000 in loans, work study is 2,000 - the other 5,000 is yours to pay.
If the total cost (as complied by the college) is 47,000 - you have to pay the 13,000 + the 5,000 + take out 10,000 in loans.
As for the Merit AiD, it is considered outside of need. If the Merit Aid is 15,000 and the 'need' is determined to be 34,000, you have a better chance of getting the remaining 19,000 in grants and maybe work study with little or no loans.
This process is anything but straight forward. Colleges every year, have to balance multiple awards and decisions - they do not know themselves at this point, how much grant aid they will be required to give - they never know until the acceptances come in. It is a real 'turkey shoot'!
As Leftcoast has said _ She and I are not trying to give you a rough time. This is a very serious warning to be aware - that straight path could be a mine field!
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