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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Sat Mar 15th, 2008 11:08 pm |
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My junior daughter auditioned for five summer programs and so far has been accepted to four of them (one pending).
I developed the initial list of programs, based on what I know of my daughter's likes and dislikes. I mentioned to her that one of the deposit deadlines was today.
This morning, we had an exchange as follows:
DD: Mom, is the name of the XYZ program director Jane... something?
Me: Yes, it's Jane...Dow??
DD: Doe? My teacher knows Jane Doe, said that's a good program, sign me up for it, send in the deposit...
Me: Yes, Doe, that's right. That's the program where you stay in a beach house with everyone, and Mrs. Doe does the cooking.
DD: Oh, I don't think I'd like that, I don't want to go there.
Me: Well, that's the only program on the list that doesn't have class on Saturday.
DD: Don't tell me anything more about it, I don't want to hear anything that will change my mind.
I was excited that she actually asked her teacher, but dismayed that she won't think through the pros and cons of each program in order to make a decision. I'd like to see her process her decisions, but she doesn't seem willing to do so. It seems like her preferences vary by the day or by passing whim.
How will this play out as she looks for a college??
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mackinaw
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Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 03:54 pm |
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I don't think all teens make decisions like that but many do. Mine did, at least in part in their college selection process. They didn't want all the information needed to make a rational decision among alternatives. They wanted enough information to make a decision, and they didn't want to invest too much time in the deciding part.
In a sense that's "rational," too, since minimizing decision costs is rational. But had they been more open-minded in the initial choice of options, they might have ended up with a different outcome. While in both cases they ended up at fine schools, they weren't open to considering all optioins rationally, and jumped to premature closure on the initial list. On the other hand, we parents played a larger role in constructing this kind of list than we might have otherwise, since they didn't want to spend too much time on the initial searches, visits, and the like. (My son visited no schools prior to applying; my daughter did all her visits on one super trip in June after her junior year.)
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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 09:13 pm |
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They didn't want all the information needed to make a rational decision among alternatives. They wanted enough information to make a decision, and they didn't want to invest too much time in the deciding part.
Thanks, Mackinaw, that is an astute observation.
I suspect that my daughter knows that the list I put together is based on a good amount of research, so she feels comfortable making her decision using "good enough" information.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 10:42 pm |
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I'll also add this to Mackinaw's astute observations on Teen decision making (if ever there was an oxymoron, that term "teen decision making" takes the prize!)
It's very important to remember that most teens are going through a major development phase. We, as adults, see the decisions facing them in rational, adult terms: which colleges should you apply to? Which college should you attend? Which summer program should you go to? Which homework assignment should you do first?
Meanwhile, teens have much more weighty fears and concerns on their mind. While we're seeing their choices in the concrete terms above, they're struggling with a whole set of different questions: Who am I? What do others think of me? Why do I have so many doubts about myself? What happens if I try and fail? How do I become an adult? And: Why won't someone make this stupid decision about (choose one: college, homework, summer programs, putting gas in the car) for me so I can concentrate on the really important stuff?
Because of all of the developmental work that's going on on a deeper level, teens also can change their minds almost daily about the rational decisions. Sometimes this is because they jump too quickly to making a choice just to get it over with. Sometimes this is because they, themselves, are changing and what they thought was the right choice YESTERDAY takes on a whole different slant TODAY when they feel so darned different.
The best thing to do, as Mackinaw suggests, is not to give too much information about the decision --- just help them determine what the MOST important issues for a decision are for them, personally, and focus on giving them the information that pertains to those issues.
It's tough to wait at times, but most teens do eventually turn into adults. 
Last edited on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 10:43 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 12:28 pm |
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Thanks Carolyn, that makes alot of sense.
This rings especially true to me:
Sometimes this is because they jump too quickly to making a choice just to get it over with.
I'm finding that my teens are so insistent on doing things for themselves (any help from me is unappreciated), yet you are right that they seem reluctant to actually do whatever it is when it IS left up to them.
I told my husband that maybe it was like working with toddlers -- I remember the advice about giving the toddler a choice between the blue shirt and the red shirt, rather than leaving the choice open ended about what to wear that day....
Last edited on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 12:29 pm by Mrs. Aardvark
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Chedva
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Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 12:40 pm |
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And then on the opposite end of the continuum, you have the kid who is so afraid of making the wrong choice, because she doesn't have enough data, that she ends up with "analysis paralysis": the inability to choose because there are too many variables to compare, and there is always some more data out there that she hasn't yet considered. Also incredibly frustrating to deal with. (Lucky for my sanity and her continued survival, this was not my kid!)
There's a lot to be said for gut-level decision making!
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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 12:52 pm |
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Well, that too fits my experience of teenagers -- one extreme or the other...
Really, my daughter is unwilling to discuss any pending decision for even five minutes.
It has made me very good at boiling down and prioritizing any info I think she should have, so I have it ready when my small window of opportunity presents itself.
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pencilnpaper
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Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 01:44 pm |
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I think our world and especially the teen world is so complex, with so many more choices than even 30 years ago, that it can be overwhelming for anyone. College choice is just one of hundreds of decisions teens must make everyday. Good book: "The Paradox of Choice" by Barry Schwartz outlines this exact phenomenon. Examples are presented which show how many of us (adults) "freeze" when given too many options, because we are often searching for "the best" alternative, rather than narrowing the choices to a handful, and picking "good enough". I know I freeze when choosing cameras. Most of my friends will just go out and pick up a sale item. I'll research all the features, all the suppliers, all the reviews, and end up more confused than ever. I would probably be as happy reading Consumer Reports and picking one or two from their recommended list -- and be done with it!
We adults are often caught in the web of looking for that perfect fit for our children -- the best college for them, the best career for them, the best car for a young driver, etc. We're not necessarily looking for the most prestigious, but are still looking for the "best" fit. Multiply that by the hundreds of choices teens are given. For many, prom, dating, clothes, etc. are a bit higher on the priority list (at least temporarily). Add class assignments, current events, EC's, jobs, etc. In the teen's mind the minor decisions are more immediate, and therefore probably more important. To the adults, colleges and careers should take priority, so it is frustrating to watch.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 05:01 pm |
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Mrs. Aardvark wrote:
I told my husband that maybe it was like working with toddlers -- I remember the advice about giving the toddler a choice between the blue shirt and the red shirt, rather than leaving the choice open ended about what to wear that day....
I've often thought that there are a lot of similarities between the terrible twos and teenagers -- the same "I CAN DO IT WITHOUT YOUR HELP!" attitude (just on a grander scale for teens) combined with an ability to fall to pieces over seemingly minor challenges.
Last edited on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 05:02 pm by CarolynLawrence
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WestrnMom
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| Joined: | Fri May 26th, 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 06:01 pm |
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Part of learning to become a responsible adult is making decisions and then having to live with the consequences. That is more important than what decisions they make as long as their choices aren't dangerous. If they make a mistake on a summer program or which college to attend and are required to live with that realization, then they will have to make new choices to correct it or learn to live with their original decision. While it seems to us that every decision is major, it's not. They can always transfer if a school turns out to be the wrong one. Students do that when they change majors or concentrations. How often do our decisions always turn out the way we expect them to in advance? I still make mistakes and wish I hadn't done certain things, but I try to learn from them and change my behaviors or decisions in the future.
It's frustrating to us to have to stand back and not interfere. Our family is facing that right now as our oldest is making some major life decisions that make us nervous. Not the choices, but even the decisions themselves are nervewracking, but if we interfere, we are getting in the way of our adult child's decision-making process and growth. So we're doing our best not to get involved unless asked, and then not to try to take over.
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hummingbird
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Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 09:39 pm |
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Mrs. Aardvark wrote:
I told my husband that maybe it was like working with toddlers -- I remember the advice about giving the toddler a choice between the blue shirt and the red shirt, rather than leaving the choice open ended about what to wear that day....
Ah, I remember that advice. We tried it, and my son would invariably choose the "yellow one." (i.e. not one of the ones I'd offered the choice of.) So frustrating!
Now that he's a teen, his decision-making seems half haphazard/half well-thought-out. So I guess we're getting somewhere after all!
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ellenrch
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Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 10:22 pm |
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Carolyn's point is really helpful. I'm very guilty of providing T.M.I. (too much information). I worry sometimes that my S is not analyzing things fully enough, but his brain is not wired that way yet. T.M.I. is just clutter to him. So far, so good. He's pretty practical.
Last edited on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 10:27 pm by ellenrch
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leftcoast
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 02:58 am |
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My son and I did a puzzle yesterday. Here it is:
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/archive/2638/26381501.jpg
There is one symbol that appears in both sets of icons -- you need to figure out what it is.
My son and I spent a long time with this and neither of us of got the answer -- I admit to being over-the-hill but my son is an expert with this sort of thing.
The problem? TMI.
I think its a good illustration as to why sometimes its better to simply go with a few options and make decisions based on gut feel. It is very often the emotional, gut sense impression that has the most bearing on whether or not we end up happy with our choices, in any case. If we feel ambivalent or confused going in, we may be more likely to continue to question the choice and regret decisions based on our feelings of uncertainty.
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mackinaw
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 03:16 pm |
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(Hi Leftcoast, I didn't have any problem finding the matching symbol, in about 30 seconds. Maybe I scanned in a particular way and got lucky.)
On the issue of information, I would suggest that what is TMI is partly a matter of timing. For our daughter any serious discussion of college before the end of her junior year would have been TMI. She couldn't handle the info at that time.
In the meantime we (her parents) were getting worried because, based on her experience in summer precollege art programs, she had already decided she wanted to attend an art school; our knowledge from the experience of our son's college search was largely irrelevant to admission to that kind of college. And so we had to fill the gap in our knowledge by doing research, mainly online, until she was "ready" to process the information. Her own sources of information were entirely word-of-mouth.
And then it was the one eastward swoop of a visit to 11 colleges in June after her junior year. After that, no more college visits, though she attended a couple of national portfolio days, got her aps in, and ultimately chose from among the colleges she had applied to (got into all she applied to--only two of which were among the 11 she had visited). No rolling-admit home-state university backup -- she wouldn't consider this.
I would say that was a fairly low anxiety search for her. The biggest uncertainty for her and us, however, was "would she get admitted"? And what if she was turned down by all the schools? The default, in her mind, was "I'll to to XCC for a year and apply to the art schools again." Would I recommend this approach to anyone else? Not on your life. But it worked for her.
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scoop
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 08:47 pm |
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| That journey is sounding very familiar Mackinaw.
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Mrs. Aardvark
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Posted: Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 03:50 pm |
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Here's an update.
My daughter exhibited many of the characteristics of teen decision making you all described. She was clearly reluctant to make a decision. She specifically complained that I was giving her too much information. As deadlines made it necessary to decide, she wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible.
In the end, she asked me to tell her again the drawbacks of each program. She then selected the one that had been her favorite all along. (I think this was her favorite because the director called and she spoke with him, it has many characteristics similar to a well-loved program she has attended in the past and, in addition, is in close proximity to Disneyland.)
Once she had made the decision, I followed up with the director about its particular drawbacks, and I was interested that dd stuck to her decision even though she could have backed out.
All in all, I do believe in the end she followed a reasonably rational approach.
It gives me hope for college decisions next year!
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