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revkat
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Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2007 04:37 am |
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Ok, I know they are way overworked at D's large public high school. I know they have 500+ students each. And I know that keeping those who almost going under afloat has a higher priority than helping the ones who are skimming along at the top.
BUT, when it takes a week to even get to talk to the GC (and that includes stopping by before school, at lunch, after school, filling out a request, and one teacher letting her out of class to try) and most of the time the GC is not busy with other students but is simply not there yet or already gone; and when D provides the addressed envelopes, the transcripts from the registrar's office, and everything neatly organized/typed; and THEN the GC hands her a copy of the common app form and a letter and says to copy it all, mark that she waives her right to see the recommendation (although how she could help seeing it when it is right there in her hand and she is supposed to make copies I'm not sure), and to send it herself, I am a little put out.
To top it all off, the letter still has the name of her EA school in it (as in "D would be an asset to school A") and the grammar is awful -- we're talking subject-verb agreement errors and mixed verb tenses. ACK.
So it will take another week to get a new copy of the letter without the specific school mentioned and I have to keep saying to myself, "They are not judging her on her GC's writing skills. In fact, maybe they will say how amazing she is given the school she comes from!"
Thanks for the opportunity to vent. I just wish it was all over. D has reached the stage where she can't remember why any of her school are on her list and she doesn't want to go to any of them (or maybe she just doesn't want to write the supplemental essays, ya think?)
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Wstrdg
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 12:32 am |
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If I were you, I'd go up the chain of command. Go to the assistant principal, if not the principal him/herself. Take a photocopy of the GC's letter(with your edits and corrections in red) and a chronology documenting your D's attempts to meet with the GC. Go in person. D doesn't need to be there, and they can pull her out of class if they want her.
Know what you want and when you want it: for example, a corrected letter by the 1st of December, or whatever. Get it confirmed in writing, even if it's you who sends an email that "thanks you for our meeting and confirms our conversation."
Can't remember what state you are in, but in Calif the chain of command is very important in public schools. They seem to allow one free screw up, but then the responsibility gets passed on up to (hopefully) more competent hands.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 02:02 am |
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Revcat, I am glad you could vent here. What you're describing is very frustrating, especially if your daughter has been making every effort to get her guidance counselor's attention.
First, full disclosure: I am filling in for a guidance counselor at a charter high school this fall, and I have a relatively small student load - just 200 students. Even so, I can tell you from first hand experience that there are many days when my best laid plans for speaking to students fall by the wayside in order to deal with sudden student crises, administrative meetings that I can't beg out of, and an amazing aray of required tasks that have little to do with college counseling but are part of my assigned responsibilities none the less. I find myself working 7 days a week just to keep up with what supposedly is a 5 day a week job. It sometimes really does require one to perform triage, in a sense, as to what you can do yourself, and what you need to ask students to do for themselves.
That's no excuse, of course, for poorly written recommendations, not getting back to students in a timely manner, or seeming not to care. But I do have a new respect for all that GCs in large public high schools must juggle. Some do a better job than others, but I doubt there is a GC anywhere who doesn't sometimes have things slip through the cracks, regardless of their good intentions, including myself.
The bottomline: it is often frustrating on both sides of the fence, and you have every right to vent.
Before I'd go up the change of command, here's what I would recommend: Call the GC yourself, Revcat, to express your concerns. In terms of the poorly written letter and the typos, say something along the lines of "I know you wouldn't want your letter to reflect poorly on the school, so I hope you don't mind my pointing out a few problems with the letter you gave my daughter." Then, reinforce the date everything needs to be sent by, and ask what will be the best way to help her get what your daughter needs done on time. Be sure to ask what the best way for your daughter to follow up with her will be. If you find yourself playing telephone tag with the GC, send her/him an email as well. Often I don't have time during the day to return phone calls, but I DO make it a point to read and respond to emails from students and parents every evening.
If, after your phone call to the GC, your daughter still isn't getting the help she needs, then, by all means, go up the chain of command. But, I suspect a phone calls and/or follow up emails from a parent will get action. (Tip: Try calling in the afternoon after school has let out for the day. I am almost always in my office then. Also, some GCs respond quicker to emails then phone calls).
By the way, both of my kids had teachers who asked them to copy and mail their recommendation letters. I didn't see this as a negative - in fact, I saw it as something of a positive because we then knew exactly when those rec's went into the mail. 
Last edited on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 02:08 am by CarolynLawrence
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Wstrdg
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 03:06 am |
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Carolyn, I guess my reply, on review, does sound a bit strident. You are correct in that the first question is always "What has been the response from Mr/Ms X?" So you do need to voice your concern to the GC first. After a reasonable period (say, 24 hours), if you don't get a response, I'd go on up the chain of command.
Carolyn suggested calling in the afternoon, after school is out. Try that. But also try the other end, before school starts, since most of the staff at our school disappears at the end of school, but does tend to get there at least 15 mins before the day begins.
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revkat
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 03:10 am |
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Thanks for listening. I will probably not go up the chain yet, but will try myself to contact the GC. I have been letting D navigate the stuff with the school up to this point, but time is getting short for the Dec. 1 deadlines.
I am more than willing to agree that the caseload is absurd. And as a taxpayer I really would rather they try to keep the potential dropouts in school even at the expense of helping with selective college applications if need be. But I do think something needs to be done at this school to change the contract with the counselors so that they are around after school. Classes end at 2:38 and by 3:00 the guidance office is shut down! During registration D's freshman year we went to straighten out a scheduling error and discovered that despite registration running until 4 for her last name grouping, the guidance counselors were gone for the day at 3. It just doesn't work. Unfortunately this is all determined by the teachers' contract with the district, so can't be changed except at the district level.
So I will be working out a pleasant, "I know you must be very busy this time of year, but a few typos seem to have slipped in to the letter -- while you are removing the specific college name would you mind changing these too?" over the next day.
And actually, I don't mind having it all in our control now (at least once D gets the revised letter). I just wish the school could provide a little more college-bound encouragement. I'm doing my best, but D could use someone else besides Mom to give some guidance to the process!
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 07:11 am |
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I agree with Carolyn's comments to a point. I would be careful about going up the Chain of Command, especially if you have other children in the future that will be attending this school.
I do want to discuss the timing issue. It is now T'giving, when school opens there is only 5 days before the December 1 date that is a deadline for a number of early decision and early action schools.
This and the week before C'mas is crunch time for GC's everywhere. December 1 and January 1 are due dates for ao many colleges.
Frankly waiting until middle November or middle December to submit applications to the GC is tempting fate IMO.
Carolyn has so clearly set forth the varied priorities that encapsule the GC time.
Advance notice with all the schools required would go wonders for the quality of the GC's recommendations etc. Rush them and they could and mostly would make mistakes including leaving a college name on all recommendations.
Our GC has all four years to advise which means she has about 80-90 students in the Senior class and 250 or so others in the other grades. Since our school sends 95% to college each year that means she has at least 80 letters to write recommending a student to anywhere from 1 to 20 schools.
Given that we hope the letter will be one that will boost our child's prospects, consider that there has been somewhere between 55 to 60 school days since labor day to now. There is about 17 more school days until C'mas (or more importantly before January 1 deadline date).
That to me means that if our GC wrote one excellent, well thoughtout and positive about one student each day, she would be able to complete this task by C'mas.
If however, she is asked around Nov. 1 to complete 45 to 60 such letters by students who have waited, those letters are going to be rather generic in tone and not the best possible effort we all would wish.
So if you want the best from the GC, consider and plan accordingly.
BTW, I am writing this at 3:07 am because our D2 will be flying out of Newark airport at 6:55 am back to St Olaf and I have to wake her at 4 am - leave by 4:20 to get her to the airoort by no later than 5:30. So sleep is something for later on sunday. But it was so nice to have her home with us - next year, D3 will be at a college as well and DW and I will be home alone! 
Last edited on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 07:24 am by jocelynDAD
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Chedva
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 12:35 pm |
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Carolyn, would it be OK for revkat to retype the letter, removing the EA school's name and correcting the typos, and attach it to the e-mail as a Word document for the GC to print on the school's letterhead? Then she can just say, "D noticed that the letter had the school's name on it - to save you time, I've taken it out. Would you please print and sign it? D will pick it up tomorrow afternoon." Not only would that save the counselor work, but she doesn't have to mention the typos at all.
Or would that offend a GC?
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warblers
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 01:02 pm |
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| I'd like to point out that the counselor letter can be written by another administrator if the GC is incompetent. My high school had a few counselors for 3000+ students, and I had a different counselor each year. I knew my counselor had NO idea who I was, so instead I had my IB coordinator write my counselor recs. She only supervised ~30 of us, so it was much easier to get a good rec. For students in schools with IB/AP coordinators, this might be the better route.
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 04:05 pm |
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I, too, would be careful about going up the chain. I have done it, and, successfully (knew the Super well), but it becomes a Pyrrhic Victory -- win the battle and lose the long-term war, particularly as j-dad rightly notes, if you have other kids in the school pipeline.
In today's age, the GC HAS to have the letter on a computer, so changing the school name should be simple.
Our public HS has 2500+ students, and 3.5 counselors, so they know few students very well, but the school still sends ~12 kids to HYPSM et al; I guess I do believe that colleges do account for the fact that not all GCs are the best and brightest, and not all have the luxury of 80-90 students like J-dad's school. [full disclosure: my son went to see his GC for the first time September of senior year, and it didn't seem to hurt him in admissinos -- heck, it may have been a plus! But, I definitely don't recommend this strategy.]
Last edited on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 04:05 pm by DesperateDad
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 08:26 pm |
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Jocelyndad and Warbler both made great comments.
Since I was dropped into the fire in late September, I don't know most of the seniors well. So, when I talk with seniors, we discuss who else could write their school recommendation letter, with me filling out the basic data (rank, GPA, etc.) Our school's acting principal, dean of students, and even the GC for the 9/11 grade classes are all pitching in, as are our AVID teachers. As Warbler so astutely noted, colleges are fine with school letters written by OTHER school officials, and if you think the GC won't be able to do your child justice, don't hesitate to have them ask someone else that knows them well. (The same teacher can not, however, write both a teacher rec and a school report).
Even though many of my students have, at my suggestion, asked someone else to write their school letter, I will end up writing many letters for seniors. Each letter takes me several hours to put together when you add up talking to the student, reading their brag sheets and other information, reviewing their transcript, and, in some cases, talking with their teachers to get a sense of the student THEN writing, proofreading copying, and mailing the rec's (it is amazing how many kids don't put enough postage on the envelopes!). It is VERY hard to write good letters for students who you don't know well - those take longer because I often have to ask more questions of the student, or talk to more teachers to get some insights and examples to write a good rec. I am supposed to only be working three to four days a week but have ended up working 7 days a week most weeks, and I'm not even doing most of the school reports - NOTE: Like most guidance counselors, I am not getting paid for the extra hours I'm spending getting those recs done.
Having several good friends who are guidance counselors, I would say this is pretty typical for guidance counselors at this time of year, so even though the guidance office might officially close right after school lets out each day, I can almost guarantee that even the most inefficient and uncaring GC is working long past closing time at home each night trying to stay on top of things. And, I want to add, that the same goes for teachers -- they write recommendations, for the most part, on their own time in ADDITION to the regular tasks of their job. (and, yes, I know that writing rec's is a part of both the GC and teacher's job description, but I also know that few, if any schools, give teachers and GCs dedicated free time to do them during the regular school day, or excuse them from their regular duties to give them time to write them).
As JD noted, the situation is often worsened by the students themselves ( obviously NOT the case in your daughter's situation, Revcat!). For instance, despite my continual nagging, only a handful of students gave me more than a week to write their rec's. I have students who have deadlines of Dec. 1 who have yet to give me the forms and other information I requested. And, most of the kids who have applied ED are dragging their feet about giving me the rest of the rec's they'll need --- since I did my best to write a letter specifically for each ED school, that means I'll have to go back and edit most of those letters. So, I fully expect to be working my butt off over Christmas in order to get everything done by Jan. 1. And, again, GC's aren't paid for that extra time. What slows the whole process down for the kids who DO get things to me with plenty of lead time is the constant crisis mode of the majority of kids, not a lack of effort on my part - "Mrs. Lawrence, I need this recommendation for a scholarship in three days"; "Mrs. Lawrence, I just decided to go for Early Action at school XYZ and the deadline is this week;" "Mrs. Lawrence, I just found out that schooll ABC has a priority deadline and it is tommorrow....Do you think you could help me out?"
As I said, at this time of year, a good deal of a guidance counselor's day is triage, trying to keep up with a constant flow of crises that can't be predicted or prevented (believe me, I have tried). This doesn't even begin to take into account the non-recommendation tasks like reviewing essays, answering student questions about the CSS Profile, fielding phone calls from parents, filling out and signing application fee waiver requests, meeting with students on their college lists, attending administrative meetings, dealing with college admissions representatives calling with questions or giving presentations at our school, and, of course, solving non-college related problems (I have kids in my caseload who may not even graduate and kids who have severe, non-college related personal problems -- they need my help and attention too, perhaps more so, than the kid coming in my door two days before his rec is due).
So, while it is unfortunate that guidance counselors and teachers often seem to take too much time to get recommendations done, or do a less than perfect job with some of them, it is often an unavoidable fact of life, even when you have a small caseload or only have to write a few recommendations.
Again, all of this is NEVER an excuse for sloppiness or mistakes in recommendations or not getting recommendations sent on time. I would be just as annoyed as you Revcat, if my son's guidance counselor had screwed up like your daughter's GC did. But, most of the teachers and GC's I know try their very best to avoid mistakes and missed deadlines. Unfortunately, sometimes the best of intentions don't pan out exactly as hoped for various reasons. In a case like that, I (and most of the GC's I know) would be *most* appreciative if a parent emailed me or called to point out something I'd missed in a letter, or to remind me of something their student needed done in a timely manner. I probably wouldn't be thrilled if someone rewrote my letter of recommendation for me, however. Give me a chance to fix my mistake first.
Finally, one last thought: your kid's guidance counselors do a lot behind the scenes to help your child. You may not see it, but they do. Most of us tell our kids to write thank you notes to teachers for writing their recommendations. This year, I will be sure to have my son write a thank you letter to his guidance counselor as well. I have new found appreciation for just how much she deserves it.
Last edited on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 08:59 pm by CarolynLawrence
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 08:52 pm |
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carolyn:
fwiw: our school counseling dept. flat our refuses to send out any rec for two full weeks from the student asking -- it's "policy". So, a request to a GC tomorrow will not go out until Dec 7 or 10, regardless of the scholarship/app deadlines.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 09:00 pm |
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| I think that is a good policy. But, I'm the new kid and probably just temporary, so I do what I am told to do which is get those rec's out, even if they come in the night before. And, frankly, I think I would have a hard time telling a desparate kid no. Last edited on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 09:01 pm by CarolynLawrence
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revkat
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 09:29 pm |
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Yes, the recommendation is on the computer so it shouldn't be a problem once we are able to let the counselor know that it needs to be fixed. And in D's defense she gave the counselor all the needed stuff for all her apps in early October since she had one EA and one rolling. It was in checking on the rolling app and the ones due Nov. 30th that we discovered the glitch.
I also have realized since writing and in reading the replies that a lot of what I am feeling is just wishing that there was someone to share this journey with D (and me too) who was somewhat knowledgeable. Even though we can do it ourselves, I find myself envious of those who have good GCs or the resources for private help. So take it as a rant and a lament, and I'm sure things will fall into place.
I figured the numbers for this school, and if only 35% go to a four-year-school, and a huge portion of those are applying only to UCs and Cal States, each counselor shouldn't have more than 20 or so recommendations to write. My husband, who is a HS teacher, writes more than that each year!
Honestly, I don't bash the schools very often, my husband and I have both worked in various public school settings and we know the way things can go. This just seemed a little over the top in carelessness. What would have happened if D had assumed that since she had turned everything in early it would all be taken care of?
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 09:30 pm |
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I wish you were a GC-sub at OUR school. 
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revkat
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 09:35 pm |
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| I second that. We need a Carolyn!
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 11:07 pm |
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revkat wrote: I also have realized since writing and in reading the replies that a lot of what I am feeling is just wishing that there was someone to share this journey with D (and me too) who was somewhat knowledgeable. Even though we can do it ourselves, I find myself envious of those who have good GCs or the resources for private help. So take it as a rant and a lament, and I'm sure things will fall into place.
Honestly, I don't bash the schools very often, my husband and I have both worked in various public school settings and we know the way things can go. This just seemed a little over the top in carelessness. What would have happened if D had assumed that since she had turned everything in early it would all be taken care of?
Revkat, don't feel bad about venting. I've had my own moments of exasperation with my kids' GCs and teachers.  Luckily, however, your daughter and my kids HAVE had someone to share the journey with - their supportive and well-informed parents.
I also agree with you about the sad state of counseling at many large publics. About all that is possible when you have 500+ kids to help is a kind of assembly-line approach and that is definitely NOT good counseling. I feel it is a miracle that any kid in that situation who doesn't have help at home manages to get themselves to college. There are a lot of kids out there who are not as lucky as our kids are in terms of having parents along for the journey. My heart breaks for them.
Last edited on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 11:08 pm by CarolynLawrence
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leftcoast
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Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2007 02:44 am |
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It is VERY hard to write good letters for students who you don't know well - those take longer because I often have to ask more questions of the student, or talk to more teachers to get some insights and examples to write a good rec.
Carolyn, I have a suggestion that might make things a little easier for you and also makes for a nice recommendation.
My daughter's college gc went to 3 or more teachers who had my daughter in their class but were were not the ones writing the recommendations, and asked each to provide 3 adjectives they would use to describe my daughter. So not too much writing for those teachers, and also an easy paragraph for the GC to write in the report. He simply explained what he had done and chose the adjectives that seemed to recur. (I assume that everyone understood that these were to be positive adjectives -- along the lines of, if the teachers couldn't say anything nice it was better to not say anything at all).
I think that in my daughter's case this was particularly helpful; I remember ambitious and assertive were used in her case. I think this was probably helpful to ad coms at places like Chicago & Barnard when it came to determining that all important question of fit.
Anyway, I doubt you have time for any one stilll trying to meet a 12/1 EA deadline, but you might want to consider enlisting the teachers help for those Jan 15 -- Feb 1 deadlines -- you could very easily create a little form that would be easy for teachers to fill out & return to you.
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Chedva
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Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2007 03:00 am |
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That's actually the procedure that my d's high school uses routinely. The guidance office gives all the seniors the forms for the three teachers; the kids give them out to teachers not giving the recommendations (often those are also non-academic teachers, like art, music or theater).
It seems like a relatively easy school-wide procedure to adopt.
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2007 06:48 am |
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D-Dad:
You missed on the number of students that each of our GC are responsible for. We have about 1800 students and 5 GC's. So each has around 360 children spread over the four classes, ergo a Senior load of from 80 to 90.
Further, since we are (happily) a school with a lot of high performance students, for the GC's that gives the added burden of many Ivy and other high selection schools with students going ED, EA, SCEA etc and parents who are not averse to calling with multiple questions on grades, finances, recommendations etc.
Our D's GC happens to have two children the exact same classes as our D's, so over the past two years on the few occasions where we have met (PTA functions), she discusses your children's college searches with us.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2007 07:00 pm |
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leftcoast wrote: It is VERY hard to write good letters for students who you don't know well - those take longer because I often have to ask more questions of the student, or talk to more teachers to get some insights and examples to write a good rec.
Carolyn, I have a suggestion that might make things a little easier for you and also makes for a nice recommendation.
My daughter's college gc went to 3 or more teachers who had my daughter in their class but were were not the ones writing the recommendations, and asked each to provide 3 adjectives they would use to describe my daughter.
Leftcoast, great minds think alike - that's exactly one of the things I've been doing. I also ask the teachers and club advisors for specific examples to support those adjectives in order to make the recommendations sound less generic. I also spend time asking each student specific questions about themselves and their backgrounds (many of our students have had difficult lives). I think the rec's have come out well, but it still takes time to track down teachers, get their input, interview each student, and, of course, actually write each recommendation (and proof it!). Last edited on Mon Nov 26th, 2007 07:09 pm by CarolynLawrence
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