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MBJ
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 01:32 am |
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is it always necessary to file financial aid forms ( even if you know that
there is no chance of getting need based financial aid ) ?
Thanks
MBJ
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 02:41 am |
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No it's not, but it depends on the school. Contact every school at which your child plans to apply for merit aid and ask. Some schools use the Profile and may want that filled out, but if they only use the FAFSA they may not need it. Financial aid comes from the financial aid office. Merit aid comes from the admissions office.
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DesperateDad
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 05:59 am |
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| each college has different rules, but it is their best interest to make sure that you are not eligible for any federal money before they award their money.
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MBJ
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 10:45 am |
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On that note, even though many colleges profess to be Needs Blind,
do they implicitly give preference to applicants that do not seek
financial aid ?
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Descartes
Super Moderator
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 12:45 pm |
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Unless someone inside the admissions process discloses some unflattering information, I don't think you'll get a reliable answer to that question. Some people maintain that some need-blind colleges do find ways to "import" financial aid information while they make their decisions.
With no direct experience, based only on a set of anecdotal data, I'm inclined to say "no", they do not sneak in financial aid info. However, this probably does not preclude them from making educated (and perhaps subconscious) guesses about an applicant's needs for FA. You might make such inferences based on essays (mention of parents' professions, for example) or on the demographics of a zip code or a high school, for example. And, of course, the economic status of ED applicants tend to trend higher.
But none of this means that they give "preference" based on the ability to forego FA. I simply maintain that this implicit information probably influences their decisions in a variety of ways. As far as I can tell, most need-blind schools are sincere in their quest for economic diversity and want students with a spectrum of resources. In pursuit of this goal, I do not think they can help but be subtlely influenced by implicit economic clues they find in application portfolioes.
Last edited on Mon Aug 6th, 2007 12:52 pm by Descartes
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Chedva
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 12:48 pm |
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Additionally, some schools penalize you in the FA process if you didn't apply for FA as a freshman. You may be put at the back of the queue for money if you only apply as a sophomore or junior.
We filed FA papers, even though we knew that we would probably not qualify, as a hedge aginst changed circumstances. If I were laid off, for example (as has happened to several people where I work), we would probably qualify for aid. It's easier to talk to the FA office about changed circumstances if they already have your paperwork and tax returns, than if they've never heard of you and you have to get that stuff put together in a hurry.
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jocelynDAD
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 07:58 pm |
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Chedva is exactly right. Better to be safe than sorry.
Circumstances change and if you have not filed for FA in the freshman year, later you will find your child at the end of the line if need does arise. Finally, with schools costing upwards of $40 and 45,000 per year plus books, transport and living expenses extra that is a big number and it gets bigger each year by $2 to 4,000 so the senior year could find you with over $60,000 in total costs (not including overseas trips expenses).
File for FA and find out what help your child might have available, no school is interested in your annual income for any other reason than to determine if your child needs aid.
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beltrami
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 09:07 pm |
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When our daughter applied to 8 liberal arts colleges, she did not ask for financial aid. She did, however receive unsolicited merit scholarships from 7 of the schools, in amounts ranging from 3,000 to 12,000. She had a stellar academic record, SAT over 2200, and came from a small rural high school. We think her strong essay and recommendations helped pique the interest of the schools.
Admissions offices use merit scholarships to help boost the yield for desirable students. Each school has a different array of slots to fill, so you'll have to figure out what talents and interests they are seeking. I think the chances for merit aid are better for match schools. Safeties are more likely to offer merit, too, if they have the financial resources.
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rhumbob
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 06:36 pm |
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| We filled out the paperwork for each school. It wasn't that difficult but there is no downside to submitting the info. At each school D applied to she received a pretty decent merit scholarship. By going down through the process and asking questions we turned up an additional scholarship available at the colleges she was considering. I don't know whether or not applying for financial aid made a difference (I knew going in we would not qualify) but I am sure it didn't hurt...at most a bit of wasted effort on my part.
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MBJ
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 07:49 pm |
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I am beginning to think that filing whatever financial aid info they need or want
is probably the wise course to take. A complete waste of time as far as
financial aid but if it helps a bit / preserves the chance to get some merit
schol. $$, all is not lost. As Shakespeare once wrote "....the better part of
valour is discretion.." Thanks. Marc
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 06:28 pm |
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First, this is the cardinal rule of college admissions and financial aid: Never assume that is true at one school will be true at ALL schools. It is important to get the details for each and every school rather than assume that it is better to do the same thing at every school on the list.
Second, it's important to understand some terms. Many colleges these days are need-aware. That means that for at least some percentage of applicants they will consider financial need in making admissions decisions. For these schools, it can indeed be an advantage not to apply for financial aid if you are perhaps a borderline candidate.
If it comes down to a student who doesn't need aid, and one who does, both of whom have similar admissions profiles, these schools WILL take the student who doesn't need aid. (Of course, if you DO need financial assistance you should ALWAYS apply for it, regardless of any small potential admissions advantage!)
Admissions officers at need aware schools are very forthcoming about it. The question to ask them is "Is College XYZ need aware or need blind in admissions?" If they say they're need aware and you DO NOT need financial aid, the next question to ask is "What percentage of the admissions pool has financial need considered?" At some schools, admissions decisions are need blind until they get to a certain point in the process -- it might be the bottom 10% of applicants, or applications received after a certain amount of the financial aid budget is already awarded . You need to know this information, and consider where your child might fall in the applicant pool, when deciding whether to apply for financial aid even if you don't need it!
Of course, if you don't need financial aid now, it is always wise to ask if there are any prohibitions on applying for it in subsequent years if your circumstances change -- but, really, there are not a huge number of schools that will tell a kid whose parents have suddenly gone bankrupt that "sorry, you can't apply for financial aid next year because you didn't when we took you." There are some, but it is incorrect to assume that this is true of ALL colleges. Remember, most colleges WANT to have a good graduation rate and most will work with students to help make that happen if circumstances do change. Again, ask each school about this, of course.
As Descartes points out, however, even need blind schools can be more "need aware" than one might expect. For instance, "need blind" schools may recruit heavily at private high schools or in zip codes that have been identified as having wealthier families. So, yes, they are not technically considering need as they read applications, but they do have ways of stacking the application pool so that the number of students on financial aid stay relatively stable from year to year. Again, I would ask each school about whether they have prohibitions about applying in subsequent years if you don't in freshman year rather than assume that ALL schools will not let you do this.
A second, very important question to ask EVERY school, whether need blind or need aware, is "What percentage of students that apply for financial aid have 100% of their demonstrated need met?" There are only a handful of schools (I have listed them on my blog in the past if anyone is interested) that guarantee to meet 100% of need for all admitted students. (Keep in mind that your definition of having need fully met and that of individual schools can sometimes differ).
Now, if you do not need financial aid and will not be applying for it, but do want to be considered for merit scholarships there are two other important questions to ask.
The first is: is there an additional application process for merit scholarships? Many schools ask merit scholars to interview, to apply by a certain date, or to complete an additional application. A few (not many) also ask those who want to be considered for merit money to also complete financial aid forms even if they don't need aid. You need to ask these questions on a school by school basis - never assume that is true for one school will be true for all schools.
The second question to ask is: What percentage of your merit scholarships are tied to financial need? At some schools, some "merit scholarships" have a need component and are given primarily to kids who are eligible for financial aid. At other schools, merit scholarships have something of a "discount" quality to attract top students who don't need any or much financial aid. It is important to know the details when you hear things like "10% of our admitted students receive merit scholarships"
Of course, you should also ask about any cut-offs in terms of SAT scores and grades for eligiblity for merit money, as well as the highest dollar amount available.
Again, the *most* important rule in college admissions and financial aid/merit scholarships is: Never assume that what is true at one school will be true at all schools. Ask questions, and ask them directly of each school (don't rely on information from other sources!)
Last edited on Thu Aug 9th, 2007 10:09 pm by CarolynLawrence
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orchestramom
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 09:34 pm |
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Carolyn
THANK YOU for posting this incredibly comprehensive, clear and invaluable explanation. You have summarized and laid out a step-by-step process that I'm sure all of us just entering the fray will consider a treasure map. I for one, am printing it out right this minute!!
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 10:43 pm |
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Thanks for your kind words Orchestramom. By the way, in case anyone is interested here is the list that I have of schools that guarantee to meet 100% of demonstrated need. A few caveats:
-- Although I have extracted this information from various reliable sources, financial aid policies do change. Please let me know if there is a college that should be on this list, or one that is inaccurately listed as meeting full need.
-- Some of these schools are need-aware not need-blind in admissions. Additionally, keep in mind that there are additional schools that meet full need for very close to 100% of students that can also make good bets for students with financial need.
-- International students should note that not all of the colleges below have financial aid available for internationals, and others may not meet full need of international students.
-- As I noted above, an individual school's definition of "meeting 100% of need" may not be the same as YOUR definition. And, of course, at *most* of these schools, that 100% of need is likely to include loans and work study, not 100% grants.
-- Finally, since I have spent a good deal of time compiling this information from various sources, I would prefer that this list NOT be copied and repasted to other college discussion forums. If you would like to link to this forum or my original AdmissionsAdvice.com blog post on this subject, or pass the link along to others privately attributing it to me and this forum, that is fine. I hope you will understand why I ask this favor.
Amherst (MA)
Barnard (NY)
Bates (ME)
Beloit (WI)
Bowdoin (ME)
Brown (RI)
Bucknell (PA)
California Institute of Technology (CA)
Campbell University (NC)
Carleton (MN)
Chapman (CA)
Claremont McKenna (CA)
Clarke College (IA)
Colby (ME)
Colgate (NY)
College of the Holy Cross MA)
Columbia (NY)
Connecticut College
Cornell
Dartmouth
Davidson (NC)
Duke
Emory
Franklin and Marshall (PA)
Georgetown University (DC)
Gettysburg (PA)
Grinnell (IA)
Hamilton (NY)
Harvard
Harvey Mudd (CA)
Haverford (PA)
Lafayette (PA)
Lake Forest College (IL)
Lawrence University (WI)
Macalester (MN)
MIT
Middlebury (VT)
Mount Holyoke (MA)
Northwestern (IL)
Oberlin (OH)
Occidental (CA)
Pomona (CA)
Princeton
Rice
Salem College (NC)
Scripps (CA)
Smith College (MA)
Southern Arkansas University
Stanford
St. Olaf College (MN)
Swarthmore
Talladega College (AL)
Thomas Aquinas College (CA)
Trinity College (CT)
Tufts University
University of Chicago
University of Pennslyvania
University of Richmond
University of Virginia
Vassar
Wabash College (IN
Washington University in St. Louis
Wellesley College
Wesleyan University
Williams Colelge
Yale University
Last edited on Thu Aug 9th, 2007 10:49 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Daaaad
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 11:56 am |
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My D received merit aid from Ohio State without filing FAFSA or any other financial aid form. OSU has several scholarship programs that are based on scores, grades, geography or other affiliations, independent of need.
The same was true at other institutions. D was offered several different merit scholarship packages based on a variety of different factors, but of the colleges she considered, only one politely pushed for a FAFSA as a "condition" of award. The rest all asked as a matter of course but it was always in the context of the potential for more need-based aid.
As noted elsewhere on this thread, you must look at each school to be sure how their merit program works.
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Alumother
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 06:14 pm |
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I asked my dad this once. He was a college professor at a top 10 university (not big 10 ), and also in administration for some period of time. He didn't answer me very directly, but intimated that of course, it was necessary for even need-blind schools to be in some way need-aware. Because over time, some people have to pay those tuition bills in order to keep the endowment in place, the buildings being built, the faculty being paid, and the financial aid being given to those who don't pay the tuition bills. Even billion dollar donation campaigns aren't enough to let everyone attend for free over time. However, I got zero idea from him just how it all might happen.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 02:38 am |
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| One of the ways that even need blind schools are, in a sense, need aware, is that *most* schools use financial aid leveraging. In other words, the "Best" financial aid packages (i.e., more institutional grants, less loans and work study or just having full need met ) go to the most desirable admits, whereas those that the school wants but who aren't at the top of the applicant pool, tend to get the less plum awards. This is one thing to keep in mind if you need financial aid - sometimes, the best packages will be from schools where you will be the shining star, not just someone towards the middle. A lot of families overlook this fact, but it is important to keep it in mind early on when you're still developing the list and make sure that the list includes at least a few of those shining star schools if you need heavy duty financial aid. Last edited on Mon Aug 13th, 2007 02:38 am by CarolynLawrence
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leftcoast
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 06:57 am |
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Alumother, you'll notice that most of the 100% need schools are also extremely selective -- so one way they keep wealthy kids flowing through their door is simply by selecting based on criteria that that tend to favor wealth --that is, the kids with the requisite test scores, academic prep, and EC's tend to be those whose parents are educated and were able and willing to spend money for private school, music lessons, etc. - along the way.
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Engineeringmama
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 11:03 pm |
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Carolyn, we were told in the information session that Lehigh is a need-blind school and will meet 100% of your need. Of course I am trying to find that on the website and can't find it. Do you know of Lehigh meets need? It's my D's first choice at the moment.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 11:53 pm |
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Engineeringmama wrote: Carolyn, we were told in the information session that Lehigh is a need-blind school and will meet 100% of your need. Of course I am trying to find that on the website and can't find it. Do you know of Lehigh meets need? It's my D's first choice at the moment.
Engineeringmama,
According to the U.S. News website, which is from Lehigh's self-reported common data set, Lehigh meets about 97% of full need for freshmen who receive aid. That's pretty darned close to 100%, but not a guarantee that every student who has need will have it met 100%. One question to ask Lehigh (and other schools) is how financial aid might change over the course of the four years --- will loans be used to meet cost of attendance hikes, or will grants rise at the same rate as cost of attendance?
Last edited on Tue Aug 14th, 2007 11:58 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Alumother
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Posted: Wed Aug 15th, 2007 12:56 am |
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Leftcoast - I am still not sure that for the top 5-10-20 schools that external signifiers will screen enough for need. Unless you make sure to admit a class that excels in sailing, skiing, managing your portfolios. I mean, if you admit completely need-blind, you might wind up with too many kids who aren't paying, no? Adcoms have to at least communicate their assessment of need-to-pay somehow, don't they?
Because otherwise someone at the top has to review every application of prospective applicants, all 1000+ of them or whatever, and just guess at who needs $$$ and who doesn't.
I do wonder how it really works. Maybe I am wrong and they just have a feel for it now and use rules-of-thumb to build a class that just will prove by its own internal logic to have the right balance of aid required and full tuition kids.
Last edited on Wed Aug 15th, 2007 05:10 pm by Alumother
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