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outwest
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 03:37 pm |
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This was in the mornings paper about the CSU system, but it can easily pertain to the UC system, too. Since I have a Junior and live in CA the public Universities will be on her list. The trouble is that they are becoming too expensive and the education too hard to get. Most students can't graduate in four years because they can't get the classes they need. Then it costs even more for additional time. It seems all the more reason to go the private route when the Cal States are near $4K a year and the UC's are 8K for fees, but the books, room/board are outrageous to make up the difference to a total of around $24K. I was shocked at how much they have increased in the last 5 years. The only way it seems worth it to me is if the student goes to a Cal State and lives at home. They say they are trying to encourage more students to do the first two years at the community college level (which remains very affordable at a couple hundred a year):
Strike threat symptom of CSU's issuesBy Charlotte Hsu, Staff Writer Article Launched: 03/26/2007 11:08:14 PM PDT
var requestedWidth = 0; if(requestedWidth > 0){ document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.width = requestedWidth + "px"; document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.margin = "0px 0px 10px 10px"; } Drawn-out contract negotiations between the California State University system and its faculty union have exposed cracks in a university system long revered as among the best of its kind in the nation. With the threat of a strike looming, faculty and others say a slew of concerns, ranging from growing class sizes to rising student fees and low teacher salaries, are an indication that the quality of the CSUs are in danger.
Among the critics is Lt. Gov. John Garamendi, who said the CSU and University of California systems are already in a state of decline.
Speaking on the phone after visiting Cal State San Bernardino last week to find out more about education in the Inland Empire, Garamendi said a decrease in per-student state funding at the CSUs and UCs in recent decades has eroded the quality of those institutions.
As evidence of that erosion, Garamendi pointed to such factors as difficulty in keeping top educators in California's public university systems because of poor pay and an increase in student fees.
"Those are all signs of a decline, and if everyone says it's still the greatest, that's only because it was so terrific," Garamendi said. "But if we continue on the course that we're on,
Advertisementwe'll be in trouble. The system will no longer be first-class." According to the most recent numbers from the teachers' union, the number of CSU educators who are tenured or on tenure-track has dropped from about 73 percent in 1996 to about 62 percent. At Cal State San Bernardino, the union reports, about 64 percent of faculty were tenured or tenure-track in 2004, a drop from 73 percent a decade earlier.
Anecdotes abound about how hard it is to recruit new CSU faculty. According to the California Postsecondary Education Commission, the average CSU faculty member makes 18 percent less than peers at similar universities are projected to make next year.
Cal Poly Pomona geography professor Kristen Conway-Gomez relocated with her family from Florida this past year and has found it to be fiscally challenging.
"I moved across the country to take this position, and I'm feeling very uncomfortable financially," she said.
Conway-Gomez said there are things she can't afford on her salary - child care among them - even though she has a doctorate.
"I do think there is a risk to the system. I have heard of other faculty members that are planning to leave in the next academic year because they don't want to put up with it," Conway-Gomez said.
John Travis, president of the California Faculty Association, which bargains for the CSU system's roughly 23,000 faculty members, said four Cal State Sacramento educators told him they were leaving in part because of low pay.
Edgar Romo, 18, a Cal Poly Pomona mechanical-engineering student, said his professors should have pay raises on par with other educational institutions.
"I think it's unfair most of the big shots in the system get more money than the teachers. It's a sign they're not appreciated," Romo said. "I would agree if they (were to) go on strike."
Cal Poly electrical-engineering student Jon Wolent, 20, agreed.
"I know they're raising tuition and they're not giving as much (to the teachers). I feel it's pretty unfair for administrators to be making more money than the teachers."
However, Wolent was concerned that teacher strikes would negatively affect his learning.
"I'm not sure how serious they are, but if they do go on strike it will affect my education."
Clara Potes-Fellow, a CSU spokeswoman, said California's public universities are still the best in the country despite sustaining hundreds of millions of dollars in cuts during the state's recent budget crisis.
She said the quality of education is as high as it has been historically. The university continues hiring faculty with advanced degrees and with work experience in key California industries, she said.
Even with fee hikes expected this fall for the fifth time in six years, CSU undergraduates who are state residents will pay less than peers at 15 comparable institutions are paying now, according to the CSU system.
With a funding shortage, some of the most vexing issues the university faces lie in the realm of expansion, Potes-Fellow said. Without more money, it's difficult for the CSU system to grow or start new programs in fields such as nursing, where demand for newly trained professionals is high, she said.
Faculty leaders such as Tom Meisenhelder, president of Cal State San Bernardino's union chapter, and Lloyd Peake, chairman of the university's faculty senate, say administrators need to rethink the direction in which they're taking the CSU system.
"It's in danger of decline," Meisenhelder said.
He chided CSU managers for placing too much emphasis on administration and too little on day-to-day instruction.
CSU trustees voted in January to boost the salaries of executives, including the system's 23 campus presidents, by 4 percent. The raise came less than 18 months after the presidents - who draw six-figure salaries - received a 13 percent pay hike.
At the time, CSU spokeswoman Claudia Keith noted that the presidents' salaries lagged behind their peers'.
Keith Boyum, CSU associate vice chancellor for academic affairs, said he and colleagues have worked diligently to keep cuts away from the classroom.
A lack of funding limits outreach to potential students, and the CSU has lost some staff who advise students on school and career choices, Boyum said.
"Both of those are elements of quality that don't have anything to do with learning success in the classroom," Boyum said. "My sense of things is that we have tried very hard and very successfully to preserve learning success in the classroom."
Contract talks that CSU and union leaders hope will be settled by April 6 are expected to help faculty secure higher salaries, although a deal following an independent mediator's recommendations still wouldn't bring CSU pay up to par immediately with salaries at similar universities.
And an agreement won't be the answer to all the CSU's challenges.
Despite differences in their assessments of what problems the CSU faces, Garamendi, Meisenhelder and Potes-Fellow all pointed to a decline in state funding as a major reason the CSU is struggling.
Potes-Fellow said the CSU system has worked hard in recent years to raise money from outside philanthropists. Heavy fundraising has traditionally been the province of private universities.
Garamendi, a CSU trustee and a UC regent, said many of the CSU's concerns apply at the UC. He blamed governors and legislatures - reluctant to raise taxes - for failing to address problems, cowering instead behind fee increases that he called a de-facto tax on students and their families.
"This has been going on now for 15 years," Garamendi said. "Over that period of time, there's been an erosion in the state's support."
"Teachers, engineers, scientists, technicians, all of those - we're in short supply," he said. "And the educational system is unable to produce them for several reasons. One of the key reasons is not enough money, not enough slots (for students). And if that continues, the jobs will be elsewhere. The jobs will go where the educational work force is, and we'll wind up with a lot of low-paying jobs. And that starts a downward spiral."
Staff writer Sahra Susman contributed to this report.
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CalifCarolyn
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 04:37 pm |
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My D applied to and was accepted at 3 of the Cal States. I talked to several of my fellow teachers who currently have children attending attending Cal State Fullerton-none are going to be able to graduate in 4 years due to difficulty with getting classes in their majors in the correct sequence (1 is a music major, 1 is elem education, 1 is a chemistry major and another is a history major). In fact the music major is already in her 5th year and won't graduate until next December at the earliest. The only student who might make the 4 year mark is one who has taken classes at the local community college since his Junior year in HS. Yesterday at lunch we had CSF students observing classes in preparation for their Student Teaching in the fall and all of them said it took them a minimum of 5 years to get their BA and now they are working on their credentials-and having difficulty getting classes. This is in contrast to the students who were here last week from Chapman who all received their BA in 4 years and then went into the credential program.
There is no guarantee that D2 will make that 4 year graduation date at a private univ but I believe the odds are better because she will make connections with her teachers beginning in her Freshman year which will keep her motivated. The cost will be about the same since she will be receiving scholarships and grants from the privates and was only offered $700 in loans from each of the 3 state schools.
by the way I started at a private (Chapman) but hold my BA and MA from Humboldt. My H also started at a private (Northwestern) but holds degrees from UCI and UCSB and teaching credentials from Chapman (and soon begins a PhD program at Chapman). I have nothing but praise for the education I received at the HSU and my H at the UCs but times have changed since the 1970s when classes were not as large and the cost was more reasonable,
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 04:44 pm |
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I've long kept track of grad rates at both the Cal States and the UC's. While they've come up at some schools (esp. the UC's) in recent years, they're still pretty dismal when you compare them to the state flagships of other states. Worse, I think there's also a mis-conception among a lot of families that attending a UC is always the cheaper route and therefore they never even look at privates. Time and time again, I've seen kids get better FA offers (less loans) from privates and sometimes even publics in nearby states over many of the UC's, and sometimes also over the Cal States, especially after merit money is factored in. By the way, I find it ironic that it's now going to be cheaper to attend the U of Arizona - sometimes MUCH cheaper with merit money - out of state than a UC in-state. Frankly, given the choice between UC Riverside or UC Merced, I'd lean towards U of Arizona. 
Last edited on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 04:46 pm by CarolynLawrence
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Wstrdg
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 06:36 pm |
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It's impossible to generalize about the "CA public universitites" because the system is as huge and diverse as the state itself. The UC system ranges from UCSF to UC-Merced, and the Cal State system is just as diverse, with a school like SLO that's too unique to be lumped with, say, Cal State East Bay. And then there are the community colleges, used by some as an extension of high school, by others as a method for transferring into the UCs or Cal States, by adults for voc ed or re-training or enrichment . . .
Here are some links to the Master Plan, if you want to compare the vision with what we have today:
http://www.ucop.edu/acadinit/mastplan/mpsummary.htm
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/~ucalhist/archives_exhibits/masterplan/
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 11:22 pm |
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The tuition at the Cal States and the UCs is still a bargain, all else being equal. What makes a private school even worth considering for us are the guaranteed 8 or 9 semester graduation rates that most offer (that is 4 years, or 4 years with one extra semester, often at partial tuition to take whatever units one is short). Also the dorm fees at private schools are often less than living in an apartment at a public school.
However, for a student with no idea what to major in or a career choice, nothing beats the Cal States for the opportunity to explore a lot of majors during freshman and sophomore year for $4,000 rather than $40,000 (again, all other things being equal). Even the $8,000 at a UC is less than $40,000.
That is why one must look at merit aid and then compare costs. It's not always possible to do that until you have all the offers in front of you, including aid.
Editing to add, other than Cal Poly SLO, there are always going to be a percentage of students at the Cal States who are not college-ready. However, rather than bringing down the good things Cal States offer, look to those who excel at them and who are ready to step into careers when they leave.
Last edited on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 11:24 pm by WestrnMom
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Overseas mom
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 01:13 am |
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I will have 2 children entering as freshmen in the fall. My 19 year old son will attend San Francisco State; in all likelihood, my daughter will attend an LAC. The differences as I perceive it are huge, just as the difference in my children's personalities and needs are.
Since we have not made a final decision on d's college, I don't know how much we will be paying yet. I do agree, though, that we will get better value for the money at d's schools since we know she will get merit aid. My son will have to be more pro-active because the state system is bureaucratic and has to be maneuvered. He will live off campus and commute to school. D will get personal attention, live on campus and have easier access to opportunities.
It comes down to what fits and works for each individual. My son would hate going to an LAC with his "peers" and my daughter would not thrive in a state school environment.
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outwest
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 03:33 am |
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You are right on, overseas Mom. My middle daughter would have hated a small school. Your son needs to be self motivated and proactive in his education. Just remind him of that because nobody is going to be looking out for him and nobody is going to care if his tush is in the seat or not. You need to be very mature to handle a large state school out of high school. I do not envy you paying San Francisco rents for him! I did that for a year or two and it was not fun.
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Overseas mom
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 04:35 am |
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| Yes, rent and the cost of living are high in San Francisco. My son has taken time off after high school to work and get used to living in the U.S. again. At his job, he advocates for others. Hopefully he will be a good advocate for himself in college. I believe that he has the skills to do it, I just worry that he'll be bored in the core curriculum classes. Last edited on Wed Mar 28th, 2007 04:43 am by Overseas mom
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leftcoast
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 07:45 am |
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It is true that there are major financial issues plaguing the CSU system and my son is very active with a student group at Humboldt called CAUSE trying to address some of those issues; it is also true that tuition costs have risen in a way that is probably very difficult for low income students.
However, my son will graduate AHEAD of time at Humboldt (in terms of the number of semesters spent there). That is, he will be able to finish in 3 semesters with an additional course or two at summer school. He has not had difficulty scheduling classes needed for his major; his classes are small; and his upper division classes are interesting and provide a reasonable amount of challenge. We were talking about one of his classes and he said the prof. was "terrific" and "absolutely brilliant" -- so when I compare the fees there with the fees charged by private colleges, I think he is clearly getting a good deal and an affordable education. Yes, things could be better.... but I think for middle class families the CSU system presents a very reasonable and affordable option.
There are other issues that impact the ability of students to graduate in 4 years. Most of the CSUs are in areas where a large number of students are commuters, and in most case the commuter students are also employed. That creates scheduling limitations for them, and some end up taking less than a full time schedule. A large part of the financial problems Humboldt is facing is because of a shortfall in their FTE (full time enrollment) figures, because many students are taking less than the 16 units required to be considered "full time" for funding purposes - although 12 units or more is considered "full time" for purposes of financial aid. It just isn't possible at any college to get a degree in 4 years taking only 12 units per semester -- but there may be many more students at public universities with that sort of courseload than at privates. Again -- they often need to juggle their course schedule with employment ... my son is managing half time employment + a much heavier course load, but he has the benefit of a very flexible arrangement with his employer.
I think that it is important to focus on the areas that need improvement, but a huge mistake to bash the colleges or the quality of education they provide. I don't think my son would be in school right now but for the opportunity to attend a CSU -- and it IS something that so far he has managed entirely on his own financially -- and he didn't even need to take out any loans this year.
In other words, quit bashing my son's school!  If you are in California and you care -- then write to your state legislator to let him or her know that you are opposed to tuition increases and support increased funding for the CSU's & UC's.... but don't assume that every kid in the system is getting an inferior education.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 07:51 am |
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Overseasmom -- does your son have any APs? My son found that Humboldt was extremely liberal in awarding AP credit, so if your son also has APs to apply, then he probably will be able to satisfy or place out of many of core courses. It might also be possible to apply SAT & SAT II scores. Realistically, your son probably will have to take one or two courses that end up boring him, but I don't think it's all that bad. SF State is a big school and there are probably a variety of options for him for fulfilling most requirements.
Last edited on Wed Mar 28th, 2007 09:58 pm by leftcoast
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Overseas mom
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 10:05 am |
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leftcoast - My son was homeschooled through Independent High School at U Nebraska which didn't offer AP at that time. SFSU doesn't seem receptive to CLEP tests and we haven't found a place to take them in the Bay Area. He's ready to take those required classes knowing they might not be as stimulating as the upper division classes.
Your assessment of the CSUs rings true as far as SFSU is concerned. Many of the students go there for very practical reasons - to get their college degrees affordably and not for the "total" college experience that the kids who go to LACs expect.
4 years at most LACs, including all expenses without any aid, will cost more than $160,000. The public college systems are the reason that high school graduates have the opportunity to go to college if they choose.
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Wstrdg
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 06:30 pm |
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Overseas mom,
If your son feels strong enough in any of the AP subjects, and if he acts fast, there's still time to sign up for AP exams taking place this May. If I remember correctly, the deadline for schools to order exams is the end of March. Some schools have already closed their sign-ups, some will take late comers, sometimes for an extra fee.
To find a school that will take you (and the CB encourages them to do so, but does allow them to charge extra, tho most don't), call the CB and give them your zip code and several nearby zip codes. They will give you the names and contact numbers for schools that ordered your subject last year. Then its up to you or your son to phone and ask if they will accomodate an extra student.
And as leftcoast mentioned, the SAT II subject tests are a good way to get credit for foreign languages, and satisfy the proficiency requirements for math and english. Register by 4/3 for the May tests, and by 4/27 for June's.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 10:11 pm |
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Many of the students go there for very practical reasons - to get their college degrees affordably and not for the "total" college experience that the kids who go to LACs expect. I think for a 19-year-old, living on his own in SF is more fun the "college experience" in any case. In fact, it was a hard call for my son when he moved up to Humboldt -- he really didn't want to leave SF! He had a room in a flat in a really great neighborhood with terrific roommates -- it was very hard to go.
Will your son be able to keep the same job he has now and shift to part time when he starts school?
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Overseas mom
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 04:46 am |
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Except for the weather in the Sunset where he lives, my son loves San Francisco. He doesn't think he will be able to work part-time at his job, but he hasn't asked yet. We'll see.
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leftcoast
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 09:30 am |
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I'd suggest that he move to a sunnier part of the city... but the sunset is much more convenient to SF State, so he probably should stay where he is.
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 03:04 pm |
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Overseas mom, A student can get a full college experience at a Cal State, even a large one. Some of the largest are Cal State Northridge, Cal Poly Pomona, Cal State Long Beach and San Diego State. Even though the schools are big, a smaller number of freshmen live in the dorms, so those become their "groups" similar to the smaller numbers of kids who attend an LAC. They tend to make very good, close friends there. Commuters will always have challenges getting to know other students. I know Long Beach has a program called The Learning Alliance that is a group of only 100 or so students a year that take some of their core courses together (it's split into honors, standard, and remedial), and then are required to give back some small number of volunteer hours in their sophomore year. They get additional course and major counseling that the other students don't get. It's by special admission, students must apply, and those who know to apply at the end of senior year, will usually be admitted. If you look into each Cal State separately, you may find similar programs. When my older child was looking at schools, we happened to hear about this program from a friend's daughter who was in it, so I'm not sure how it's changed since then. At that time, they also offered priority registration. I can't say enough good things about the Cal States. Yes, they have their downsides, like any large school, and there is a mix of students from National Merit Scholars and Valedictorians down to those who aren't college ready. But the education is one of the best, and the price can't be beat by anything except a CC.
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CalifCarolyn
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 07:54 pm |
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Long Beach State-one of the girls in my Ds Girl Scout Troop will be attending Long Beach State. She is one of the top 5 students at her HS, she has been identified GATE since 1st grade high achiever, activity in the community etc.... Her Dad is a Long Beach Grad and the school is less than 10 min from home. I know it will be a good match for her. She is an outgoing bubbly young lady, very self confident but not ready to leave home-she has 3 younger siblings and states very firmly that she wants to be part of the life of the youngest one not a 'drop in big sister'. She could have choosen UCI but thinks she would be happier at LB. She is also already looking at Grad Schools and figures she will be able to afford more if she works through her undergraduate program.
Her statement---The college experience will be WHAT I MAKE IT!!
Last edited on Fri Mar 30th, 2007 07:54 pm by CalifCarolyn
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Vderon
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 12:43 am |
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Hi- Long Beach is one of the schools my duaghter is considering. A couple questions- will she get decent merit aid coming from OOS, or are they more inclined to give merit aid to in staters? Also, will she be okay socially coming from Illinois?
She is pretty outgoing.
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WestrnMom
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 02:00 am |
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The Cal State system gives need-based aid to students whose families make roughly less than $40,000 a year. The only merit aid I know of is for Valedictorians from California high schools. They are called President's Scholars at CSULB and get a full ride, including tuition, room, board, and books.
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CarolynLawrence
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 02:02 am |
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Hi Vderon - First, welcome. I just sent you a personal message. You can read it by clickng ont he "You have -- new messages" link in the right hand corner of your screen.
Second, as Westrnmom has already noted, merit scholarships are few and far between at the California State University schools, and the ones that are available are mainly restricted to California residents. Here's a link to the scholarships page for Cal State Long Beach: http://www.csulb.edu/depts/enrollment/financial_aid/scholarships.html
The good news is that out of state tuition at the Cal States is relatively reasonable for the Cal States, (see this site for out of state costs: http://www.csulb.edu/depts/enrollment/registration/fees_basics.html) and, if you qualify, your family will be considered for need-based aid based on the total cost of attendance as an out of state student. However, all of the California publics, including the UC's, tend to rely heavily on loans in their packages for out of state students.
In terms of coming to California to school and the social aspect, it shouldn't be a problem. My daughter actually went in the opposite direction -- she headed from California to Wisconsin, and she has done fine. Californians tend to be pretty laid back and accepting, and since there are so many people here who came "from somewhere else" fitting in shouldn't be a problem. One thing I would recommend that you look at very carefully if you're looking at Long Beach and some of the other Cal State Schools is the availability of on-campus housing after freshman year. It can be very limited at most of the Cal States, and a car is often necessary to make commuting from an apartment financially affordable.
What is your daughter interested in studying? If she's coming to LB, I suspect she's interested in film. If so, you might also have her look at Loyola Marymount, Chapman University and, of course, the University of Southern California. All have excellent film programs, and can be generous with merit scholarships, depending on the student's grades/test scores.
Last edited on Tue Jul 10th, 2007 02:07 am by CarolynLawrence
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